all at once. To the kid YOU seem selfish because you want him to do something he doesn't want to do. Perhaps by pointing out that YOU don't always want to make him dinner, but you do etc. might be a good object lesson. I think he sounds like a pretty normal 6 year old, but of course, you want to get him PAST this stage, ha, ha!

That was also why I was peppering you with questions/suggestions about the actual event. Church. Might be easier to 'fix" in the short term than the big "selfish/not selfish" thing.

Another Mom on the boards here recommended a book called "Raising Good Children" and I have been reading it and getting a lot out of it. Its about a child's moral development, which is of course something I struggle with too. I think we all do!

Man, we could use some rain here! But 9 days?! What a drag! Sorry!

up in church, and so far, not a serial killer amongst them!  No politicians so far, either.

I hope this is something you can work out in your own heart before your children get to be too much older.  My mother in law was a wonderful person, and her religion and faith were very important to her.  I'm glad she had that solace, because her life was not an easy one.  She never learned how to offer any one else that some tolerance, however.  She took it very, very personally.  She was absolutely crushed over the possibility that her husband might doubt the existence of God.  Worse, she spent the last amount of quality time she had left with my son arguing with him about our lack of church going.  

Your children might grow up wanting to share in your traditions.  Please, however, let them know that you'll love them and accept them whether they do or not.  Don't let it be something that drives wedges in your relationship with them.

And a six year old selfish?  Who'd imagine!  At six, one of my told me I was a "wicked parent" because we didn't stop at the carry out for a snack.  She was neither selfish or uncaring.  She was six.

between church and school is that school is likely essential to his lifelong well-being.  I see church as a very personal, voluntary commitment that means a great deal to some, but not all, people.

I also meant to add that church can and will be optional soon enough, when they are adults! There are no guarantees that just because you gave a child a faith tradition, they will carry it on.  But if it's important to you, you do what you can when they are children and be at peace with it later.

of how a question is phrased to a young child.  My dh would often ask our kids if they "wanted" to do X and would be frustrated when they replied with an answer that was not desired by him.  It took awhile  for him to more thoughtful of how he phrased questions or suggestions to our kids when he knew there wasn't a real option for the kids in their response.  It was an easy "fix" in that when he didn't give an option i.e., it's time to do X, rather than do you want to do X, he found that the kids were compliant for the most part.

It's important to separate the times when kids really have a choice from when as parents we already know the outcome we will accept or the desired behavior we are looking for.  I found it simplified things tremendously for us with our kids and also made the times when they had real choices about activities, etc., much more valued and true.

My parents insisted we go to church as kids.  So we'd get up and get dressed up, our parents would take us to church -- and leave!  Sometimes after they picked us up we'd go out to breakfast, which was fun.

Since I was in high I've explored many religions because I am curious about them.  I like the idea of setting aside time once a week with a group of fellow-believers to remind myself of my higher self, and re-affirm a commitment to live from there as much as possible.  But I never found such a place, except inside myself.  I guess that's why I think church is not for everyone.

reached, oh, the grand old age of three or so, I can remember being totally shocked and taken aback when they would voice ideas that hadn't come from me.  They weren't just little clones of myself...they were real people who would have real thoughts coming from their very real brains.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask a 6 year old child to be involved in family activities. Nope, not everything in the world is fun kid, suck it up.

I'm sorry you felt that religion was forced on you as a child, but when you get to be a grown-up then you get to decide your own beliefs. Struggling with that is hard for believer and non-believers alike. Figuring out our spiritual identity is the work of a lifetime. This Mom does not want to make the very act of going to church a battle ground, because once he gets there the kid seems to have a good time, with friends and donuts and juice.

Don't we all struggle with stuff like this? What if your kid doesn't want to go to school, or brush their teeth, or eat their veggies? If its important to you, then for a period of time, its going to be part of their lives.

but as someone who's not interested in organized religion, I felt as if maybe, not intentionally, we felt a little "judged".  I want my kids to have a sense of "something larger than themselves", too...but this doesn't mean that this sense has to come from a church. I think that's what many of us were trying to explain...there's many ways to accomplish that goal and still meet your own spiritual needs.  

I hope that feel you feel you did get some support and ideas here, because I think there was a lot of it, from all different perspectives.

I also hope that you aren't feeling too wounded. Talking about religion can be very touchy indeed, whether in real life or on the internet.  Religion is right up there with politics, isn't it?  Or so the etiquette books tell me  : )

I agree with you that wanting your child to be a part of a faith community is in no way selfish.  I hope that you and your husband can find a spiritual path for your family, and one that works for all of you. It's not easy.

I don't think he's really at a point where he can truly understand that he hurt your feelings.   He simply sees that you wanted him to do something he didn't want to do and he stalled until he got what he wanted and was happy...that's a 6 year old.  

You'd like him to be a part of something that you enjoy and that makes you happy - that's understandable.   He doesn't want it right now.  I think the best course of action is to let it be and leave him home.  Go and enjoy yourself.  You don't need the hassle of dragging him along.  

Maybe try a vacation bible school or something if you want him to have a positive view of your church - is the Sunday School program dry and dull?  Maybe see if you can make it better for all the kids.   I doubt that he's having a huge spiritual revelation at 6 and it's more that he's bored out of his skull and would rather do something else.  

Personally, I found most of my spiritual connections at church camps - nature, that's the church to me.  

I am late to the game commenting on this because I was at church all morning and then taking a nap this afternoon. Go figure...

my 2 cents is that your son likes the relaxing, hanging out in pajamas kind of Sunday morning, and perhaps sees his dad doing the same thing [I couldn't tell if your husband is hanging out reading the paper on Sundays or working in the yard, running errands, working from home or whatever -- so, sorry if I am misunderstanding]. I think the fact that your DS sees dad not going makes it a more attractive option to him.

Sounds to me like he doesn't hate church, as you said he enjoys it once he gets there.

FWIW, I was not given the choice of going to church growing up and I have consistently attended church my whole life, including college and up to this morning. We don't give our kids a choice either, and they mostly like it. They have friends there, they have children's activities where they learn lessons that are important to us. When they are adults, they will do as they choose but for me, this foundation is as important as making them do their math homework even if they don't like math.

I think your child is not doomed to be a sociopath because he fails to feel sorry for hurting your feelings today. Sounds to me more like being a six year old kid.

Wasn't it only one person that made you feel judged? Don't judge the rest of us!! I think we're really trying to help...

Sending you gentle strokes. You know typing can come out harsher than we intend. I have a tendency to say whatever I think...there isn't a lot of frontal lobe breaking sometimes. That's not so bad in person, but isn't always great online.

Hugs.

FWIW, there's a diary on SP today from a father whose son announced he was not going to be confirmed today because he did not believe in God.  The son is 14, and I'm thinking, "I didn't hit that stage of agnosticism until high school!" I agree with others here, that if you value church like you value math and vegetables, then there's little room for argument.  I have had the same discussion with 12 yr old DS re "church is values education, school is 3Rs education, and we don't blow off either."  In all honesty, for all his complaining, he loves the youth choir, and the opportunity to play a sax solo at offertory, he loves helping with the hunger collection, it's just the getting dressed and getting there, when cartoons look more inviting.  And DH does go also.  I'm just waiting for confirmation next year. (sigh...)

But that doesn't really seem to be what this is about.    We're trying to to get an understanding of what it is that's hard on you, since you have a lot of choices.  You're completely within your rights to make the kid go and it's probably good for him.  But if it's stressful for you because he is fighting it, then you should try something else, at least until he somewhat outgrows this behavior.  And there's a strong possibility that what his dad does is figuring in somehow...

His behavior is absolutely selfish, but it doesn't seem developmentally innapropriate.  It takes a lot of sophistication to hurt someone intentionally, so I really don't think that's what he's doing.

my father is kind of agnostic, and every Sunday morning he goes for a bike ride while my mom's at church.  But he went almost every week when we were younger.  That made it a family activity.  We really liked church, but there were still times we really didn't want to go, and when we were preteens or so we got to make that choice.

It seemed like the church-going was only one example of him behaving in a way that worried Laura. Maybe deciding to take church out of the equation is a step -- If DH was going, then it would be part of your family's culture, and then I'd agree that DS should be going to church with the whole family. Since DH does not go, and as a grown up has made up his mind about that, then church/religion is going to be taught to DS as an individual's personal thing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Show respect to him and DH, and he will learn to show respect to you and DD in kind. And maybe in the future he will decide to investigate further because he's been taught to respect your beliefs.

As for being worried that he's selfish, he is — but not because he doesn't want to go to church, but because he is 6. As for being worried he will STAY selfish, what things can you put in place now to teach him to be more empathetic? I agree with Laura that it's not ok to find joy in breaking mommy down. I think she's at a crossroads, and how she learns to handle this now will only better prepare her for what could come up in the adolescent years.

Laura -- I'm sorry your experience posting didn't go as you hoped. It sounds like you are like me, and can be sensitive. Maybe that's why DS's attitute hurt you so personally. Around here people are generally very respectful in their disagreements, and as much as I love and appreciate men for their unique point of view...sometimes they throw things off a bit, which is what happened above. Don't give up, since this is a great place to get instant feedback on parenting! We all have these dilemmas and it's great to know you aren't the only one going through something tough.