Mother Talkers

temperament, missing diagnosis, or just fine?

by slackermom

Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:26:18 PM PDT

ok, i am not even sure how to bring this up, but i've done a piss-poor job talking about it IRL, since i just feel like a mean mom for mentioning it, so i thought i'd tap into the collective wisdom and experience here.

as i have mentioned before, i have 4 kids.  they are all different of course, and i love them all to pieces (but not like the runaway bunny, who i think goes a bit too far, turning into a tree and all).  they are each challenging, but one much more so than the others.  and not challenging in that misbehaving, get in trouble kind of way.  that i can deal with.  it's much more complicated than that.

one of my kids, whom i will refer to as dc (dear child), is challenging due mostly (i think) to temperament.  (trying not to give away gender, as singling out one kid on the net will make me feel even worse).  dc is pretty shy and a classic example of slow-to-warm-up, but we've been working on that, and come a long way.  yet dc is still pretty moody and is prone to pouting and scowling when things aren't going the right way, or even just because.  dc is also VERY concrete and literal.  smart, good at school, but abstract thought is anathema to this child.  and conversation is a very low priority, attempted only grudgingly.  social interaction is ok with peers, but i know that will change as the peer group demands more intense social interactions (a weakness), rather than active play (a strength).  

i am usually very good at figuring out kids, in fact people often use me to figure out their own, but dc is stumping me big time.  there are definitely distractibility issues, which may interfere with learning later on, but are ok for now.  and activity level is pretty high too, but not ridiculously so.  dk is not an unhappy kid... giggly even, when in the right mood, but not a joyful kid either.  not everyone can be, i get that. that's part of the whole temperament thing, and most of the time, dc is pretty even-keeled.  i can't think of one diagnosis that "fits", and i've known/worked with just about all of them... a bit adhd, a bit aspergers-y, with a bit of sensory processing stuff thrown in, but not enough of any one thing to bring about a clear diagnosis.  

what this means as a parent, is that it's tricky to connect.  we are a very verbal family, conversation is huge, so there is a big gap there.  i've spent a lot of time 1:1 with dc, but any attempts to chat are still very much spurned.  i've learned to enjoy riding around in the car just listening to music together.  or reading.  or swimming. or writing notes.  but i still feel like we are both missing out, and i worry what will happen socially as dc gets older.   dc often prefers to be alone, though really does enjoy other kids too.  i know both receptive and expressive language skills are well above age level (i tested a few years ago)... but they're just not all that frequently used.  virtually all "conversation" with dc revolves around the surrounding environment, describing what's happening at that moment, asking factual questions, or just meeting the basic needs of being a kid.  it is a very basic way of communicating.  

part of me thinks that if someone said, "oh, dc has X", then i would relax a bit and reframe our experience.  but the other part of me knows that dc is the way dc is, so even if a diagnosis were possible, how would that help at this point?  it could all just be temperament, or personality, or whatever.  and i don't think strategies would change much... trying to respect who dc, work on strengths, while trying to expand experiences and the comfort zone.  

so i guess, i'd love to hear if other MTers have similar experience or advice.  i am torn between using my teacher head and my mama heart to do what's best, and i'm mostly sad that connecting is such a challenge.  it happens, but there's tons of frustration in between.  how do you all deal with what thomas & chess (77) described as the "goodness of fit" between you and your child, if that fit is less than ideal?  dc is smart and kind and loving, enjoys hugs, is really sweet to siblings, and a great kid.  so why does this bother me so much?  changing expectations for learning would be one thing, but changing expectations about relationships is very challenging for me.   the balance of trying to respect who dc is, while helping dc to connect with other people eludes me. i feel awful for being frustrated, and i know it doesn't help.  my partner is similarly stumped, but less affected by it.   thanks for reading... i hope some of this made some bit of sense.

Tags: temperament, parenting (all tags)

Permalink | 31 comments

  • Don't want to blow your cover (0 / 0)

    but I am fairly certain I know which child you are describing so I know the age range we are dealing with,which helps. I can see where this is a tricky situation because it's kind of a crap shoot as to whether this is just a difference in communication and relating styles or a situation where as you say,a diagnosis is missing. I know you mention that your husband notices the difference but what,if anything, do dc's teachers,coaches,friend's parents say about dc? I guess I'm wondering if this is something other adults in dc's life are concerned about or if it is more a situation where you see it more than anyone else because you are looking at it as a failure to connect. I don't have any real answers and just think you should follow your instincts. DC,whom you say seems,all in all,to be a happy child,seems perfectly content with the level of connection you guys share,once you've explored all the possibilities and reassure yourself that you are meeting her needs,you may just have to reassess how you define a successful,healthy relationship even though that is an amazingly hard thing to do.

    by kwetsel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:30:17 PM PDT

    • i knew you'd find me out! (0 / 0)

      yep.. your hunch is right. and i think your words that:

      once you've explored all the possibilities and reassure yourself that you are meeting her needs,you may just have to reassess how you define a successful,healthy relationship even though that is an amazingly hard thing to do.

      are right on the money.... i do have to do that, no matter what... a balance between not giving up, but not trying to have her do things that are just not gonna happen.   and yes, dc is pretty content with the relationship... i think dc's needs are simpler.

      by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:29:06 PM PDT

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    • sorry, forgot to answer the part (0 / 0)

      about others' perceptions.  really, anyone who really pays attention to relationships has noticed.  people who don't, just think "shy".  but aunts, my best friends, our favorite sitter (who dc ADORES) and my mom have all noticed and commented on similar insights.  it's part of what makes me sad... people who love dc and want relationships with her too, also find it challenging to connect.  teachers generally rave about how smart and well behaved dc is, only commenting on activity and distractibility levels (and not really concerned, but more watching at this point).  and dc really does do well with peers, but the mama bear in me worries this won't be the case in a few years... but tjb22's comments down[post give me new hope for that.  

      by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:02:42 PM PDT

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  • goodness of fit (0 / 0)

    I perfectly understand what you mean by lack of fit - we've experienced this too.  I don't know if this is one of your adoptive children, but have you looked into the attachment spectrum? There can be subtle signs without being anywhere near an actual disorder.

    My challenging child probably isn't really that much more difficult than his brother, but I have much more difficulty reading and responding to him.  Although I had no thought of an actual disorder, I do think he showed some signs of anxious/insecure type attachment. I focused more on this sort of thing beginning when he was around 3, and I think that helped.

    It's so much easier when you can slap a label on something, isn't it?  You at least know where to turn for advice.  But often the labels don't fit all that well.  And our society does have a tendency to pathologize things that basically just come down to temperment.  Good luck - it must be so much harder to figure this out when the primary 'symptom' is in communication.

    by lyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:41:50 PM PDT

    • attachment.... (0 / 0)

      i definitely paid lots of attention to attachment when they were small b/c before i adopted my two eldest, i was a foster mom to a little girl with reactive attachment disorder.  that was by leaps and bounds and millions of miles, the most difficult thing i've ever dealt with.  i teach about bonding and attachment in my child development courses, and always tell stories about which one of my kids fits into which category.  oddly enough, dc fits into "secure".  

      and yes, i am not pro-or anti-label... i just would love to know where to turn to for advice/strategies, though i am starting to realize it doesn't matter what, if anything, we can call this.. the strategies will likely remain the same.  and mama has to relax and reframe.  i know i'd be better at reframing WITH a label, but that makes no sense at all.  

      by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:33:30 PM PDT

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  • combine your teacher head (0 / 0)

    and mama heart. Listen to both, like you have been doing, you are trying to expand dc's comfort zone whilst accepting and valuing that person's individuality. I don't think those are mutually exclusive ideas at all. We all want/need to be the most well-rounded, full versions of ourselves, right?

    by Suzanne77 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:13:23 AM PDT

    • head vs. heart... (0 / 0)

      We all want/need to be the most well-rounded, full versions of ourselves, right?

      thanks for seeing that this isn't about changing dc, but making sure dc gets to "be all dc can be", and by extension. we can "be all who we can be" together.  

      my teacher head is often more tolerant than my mama heart... as a teacher, i can look at who a child is and try to figure out how best to help in that moment, or that year.  but as a parent, i worry about the future and how X now will impact Y later on.  maybe i should just start thinking of my kids in terms of a one year basis, like i did in school, lol.  

      by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:39:00 PM PDT

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  • I have a child who is rather (0 / 0)

    like this.  The question has been raised as to whether he might have mild aspergers.  His testing did show, however, that his "expressive" language skills were on the low side several years ago.  He received some help with this, but to be honest, I'm not sure how much it really helped, nor am I sure that this was really his problem to begin with as we finally discovered his main academic challenge was simply holding a pen or pencil and putting it to paper to write.  His expressive skills are fine when he types.

    For whatever reason, when he hit puberty, he starting showing a lot of improvement in this area.  He's still moody, and he still isn't a chatterbox, for sure.  Academically, he's doing very well.  He has his circle of friends, and even girls seem to like him!  I've come to accept that this might just be a facet of his personality.  He's not going to be the life of the party.  Interestingly enough, he's my only child who is better in math than he is in reading, language and other similar classes.  

    My older son can be a bit withdrawn in company, and he will confess to be very uncomfortable around large groups of people.  He's very, very expressive and talkative in smaller, more familiar situations, though.  

    Both of these kids, however, have the habit of being a bit "scowl-y" and will mumble and talk to themselves.  

    by tjb22 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:34:32 AM PDT

    • i was hoping you'd respond.... (0 / 0)

      and this is realy interesting...

      For whatever reason, when he hit puberty, he starting showing a lot of improvement in this area.

      i guess puberty can do all sorts of things to our brains... i wonder if other people find the same thing?  

      Interestingly enough, he's my only child who is better in math than he is in reading, language and other similar classes.  

      i can already see this being a possibility w/dc... maybe math or science, but moreseo math, since it is so knowable.

      and so how, as a mama do you smile and be all warm and fuzzy with scowly kids?  this is something i need good strategies for, i think.  i find it a very challenging thing to respond to scowling in a sunny way.  

      by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:44:06 PM PDT

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      • Asdf (0 / 0)

        That does sound really hard - responding to scowling in a sunny way. One thought off the top of my head, is to figure out another way to respond that feels both loving and authentic. Think of your own code word - something like, poignant, observant, stillness - to remind yourself that maybe it doesn't have to be sunny?

        Ask dc what the scowl means - teach her to explain it in more complex ways over time (more nuanced feeling words, more backstory to the scowl). Eventually, begin to talk to her about how you feel when you see the scowl. Even something simple like, when I see that scowl I'm not sure what it means and I don't know what to do. Then I clam up or start to feel frustrated ...

        Since she's not much of a talker that way for the time being, there's also an exercise I've done with kids called The Weather Inside. So what's the weather when the scowl is there? She can draw or just describe it. What's the weather when she's smiling? (You can ask that one later ...).

        Anyway, just some ideas off the top of my head. She sounds like a great kid.

        RachelD

        by RachelD on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:04:17 PM PDT

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        • yes... (0 / 0)

          authentic and loving would be very good.  right now, i generally choose between  fake (really bad at that, and dc sees right through it) and ignoring (which though dc is not a huge attention-seeker, still hates).  neither works very well.  i like the code word idea... makes me think of the mantra (screamed at the top of lungs) on seinfeld... "SERENITY NOW!"  maybe i need a mantra.

          we have tried to talk a good deal about the scowling... how it makes dc feel, how it makes others feel... i ask dc to look in the mirror and tell me if that's how dc wants other to think of her.  she totally resists discussing it, but the mirror does help much of the time (unless she really just wants to scowl, which everyone should get to do sometimes).

          i like the weather outside/inside a lot.... will definitely try that... hopefully dc can move beyond the literal translation of that... or i could think of a more literal-friendly term.  while very rigid in her thinking, dc loves to draw and write, so that is a good idea for this piece of the puzzle.  funny, i used drawing and writing about feelings ALL the time as a teacher, but as a parent, i hadn't used it.  thanks.

          She sounds like a great kid.

          yes, she really is... which is why i would so much like to get as far as we can with this stuff... to allow other people to enjoy her and vice versa.

          by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:16:53 PM PDT

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      • I usually try to make them (0 / 0)

        see the impression they are leaving.  I do it through humor.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.  When it doesn't work and I'm really not in the mood to play nice, I do turn it back on them a little.  Nothing wrong with letting some one have a dose of their own medicine every now and then.  Ofcourse, being a mother, I have to point out that this was my deliberate intention.  

        My older son, who is a bit scowl-y, usually chooses people to associate with who are very different.  I think that says something.  I'm very glad that his girlfriend is a lot like the females in our family.  Its as if he's trying to somehow make up for what he considers less positive features about him self.  I think part of him recognizes that this really isn't how he wants to be.  And a little reinforcement from sources outside the family isn't a bad thing.

        by tjb22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:36:34 PM PDT

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  • This week someone told me there's "ish" and "it" (0 / 0)

    I'm in the same boat - wondering if one of my children has mild Asperger's Syndrome (AS) and one mom I confided in said, "there's "ish" and there's "it" and what she meant by that was a child can seem like it or they can really have it, but she didn't se the value in the diagnosis or the label.  I think the label would help, personally, because there are therapies that would remedy my child's particular deficits.  I'm told a child with no social or anger management skills can learn them by rote.

    When I stomp around on the internet, I find articles such as this one that tells me maybe what I am looking at the seriously complex "giftedness" which is surprisingly similar to AS.

    I have some phone numbers here for AS specialists, I may get my child tested.  All I can think of is, will I look back in 3 or 4 years and regret not following through with my hunch?

    by MsMarvel on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:44:43 AM PDT

    • i think we're ish... (0 / 0)

      my gut tells me asperger's is the closest currently known category, and i've worked with same age kids who had the label... dc reminds me of them quite a bit, but no way would dc "pass" the test to be placed anywhere on the spectrum.  and while anger mgmt. is not an issue for us, learning social skills by rote is something we've been working on for years, and it does work, though still needs a good bit of reinforcement.  we went from scowling and non-responsive when people spoke to dc, to looking at the person, to looking and smiling, to looking, smiling and responding, and now w/o help, that has jumped to answering follow-up questions unprompted (often, not always).  this took years, but has made a huge difference, and dc can see and even likes how much more positive people are now.  one thing that has always been tricky is dc is very tall for age, usually wears clothes twice the size of current age... so people expect older behaviors, and find younger-for-age behaviors.

      it sounds like we're in the same boat for sure... but dc would only earn an ADHD diagnosis at this point, which wouldn't be as helpful.  although some part of me wonders what meds would do.  like if dc's body and distractions were kept more under control, would there be more interest/focus in connecting and communicating?  

      and this is all so tricky b/c my older brother has profound autism.  he does not speak at all.  and yet, i have felt connected with him since i can remember... we have a really strong bond.  my mom's theory has always been, if a child can talk, anything can be "fixed", but i am finding that even though dc can certainly talk, it's all still very tricky.  

      by slackermom on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:57:04 PM PDT

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      • First off, (0 / 0)

        mega-hugs to you as you try to untangle all of this.  I think the temperament/diagnosis issue  may be one of the most interesting questions in psychology right now - at what point is an active kid someone with ADD, at what point is a shy, quiet kid someone with AS?  On the one hand, I work in this field and see the benefits of diagnosis.  OTOH, I also see kids for whom no diagnosis really fits, and whose parents are struggling as you are.  

        FWIW, the labels/diagnoses are mostly just behavioral descriptions  - behaviors that professionals have grouped together.  The grouping of behaviors into a diagnosis helps alot with treatment or education, but it's not the full answer.  Richard Roy Grinker's "Unstrange Minds" does a great job of teasing this part out.

        Two things you said struck me, though.  First off, I think gender was revealed somewhere in the thread.  There's no question that girls with AS present much differently than boys.  There was a great "Primetime" show on ABC that focussed on this - many women didn't get diagnosed until adulthood, and still don't look "typically" autistic.  ((FWIW, I tried to find a link to this story for you, but I only found it as a DVD on Amazon.  Maybe it will re-run on TV at some point))

        Also, the genetic underpinnings of autism mean that traits of autism and aspergers run in families.  If you have a brother with autism, it does mean that other people in the family may have some milder traits - language issues, social discomfort, etc.  These may not rise to the level of diagnosis, but they are still there.  One coworker, whose son has Aspergers, told me about a recent family reunion where "everyone looks and sounds like John!"

        Don't know if any of this helps with your particular DC, but I think either way (temperament or diagnosable) the approach would be similar - teaching skills that make DC's life easier and happier, and adapting to traits that don't change.

        by Sue in Queens on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:34:38 AM PDT

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        • thanks.... (0 / 0)

          I think the temperament/diagnosis issue  may be one of the most interesting questions in psychology right now

          that was very helpful to read, to give me some peace as to why it's such a tricky thing to untangle.  

          yes... dd is a she... i will definitely get the book and look for the dvd too, i didn't know about the gender difference with aspergers, so that may help me think through this.

          and although we are not genetically related, that certainly doesn't rule out a genetic trait in her birthfamily.  her birthmom (who i met briefly once) is reserved, but smart and kind and smiley too.  no reported autism spectrum issues in her birthfamily.  

          and this...

          adapting to traits that don't change.

          is definitely a bit part of my work. two things are at play... 1. dd turned five recently, so things i had been "tracking" since she was about 2 and 1/2... i realized they hadn't changed much and probably won't.  and 2. my two year old is about the most social and verbal kid on the planet, so having him ask and say things that dd has never considered, makes the issue more striking.   thankfully, my oldest is a moderated version of his little brother, because the middle two can each be exhausting in different ways.

          by slackermom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:41:39 PM PDT

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      • Aren't they all part of the same spectrum? (0 / 0)

        My impression had been that ADHD, Asperger's, Autism were conditions that prevailing opinion was that they were probably all part of the same thing (and sensory integration issues fits into that, too). I like labels. I like that they help us categorize and understand quickly, they're a form of shorthand and that's really useful, they only become problematic when people misuse them or are inflexible with them. Label or not, everyone's unique. I think maybe in a lot of ways, what you're doing without a label is what I'd recommend if you did have one, anyway - you need to cherry pick the applicable parts of different conditions to understand DC anyhow, whether they fit more clearly into one condition or not. Honestly, I think that's the best way to deal with Autism Spectrum Disorders anyway, some people have extreme expressions of some aspects and minor ones of others, or vice versa. The important thing is to take what's relevant to you and be prepared to discard what's not helpful.

        "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

        by Expat Briton on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:16:20 AM PDT

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  • you're doing such a fantastic job (0 / 0)

    I think you're way ahead of where most parents would be, with or without a diagnosis.  I salute you.

    As for the diagnosis - temperament question, my own personal rule of thumb is, Is the child unhappy?  Is the child's behaviors or feelings interfering with his ability to do things he wants to do?  There are kids who desperately want to connect and don't have an idea of how to do that, and social skills therapy is helpful for them.  In your case, you're doing a lot of social skills therapy that sounds like it's making DC's interactions appear more smooth.  The teachers aren't complaining, the schoolwork is okay, the relationships sound satisfying for her.

    I know it's very hard as a mama not to look ahead and try to prevent/remediate the weaknesses we see.  God knows I've tried to "help" DS with things only to have him feel "less than," because they weren't currently affecting him.  You know there are ways to gently shape behaviors in the desired direction without making it an all-out campaign.  So maybe keep up the subtle and good work you've been doing, and if anything becomes problematic, seek help?  If you don't think strategies would change, maybe keep on keepin' on and, as RachelD said, try to find a way to feel good about the interactions even though they're not as satisfying to you.

    Lastly, as someone who works in special ed, I would recommend holding off on a school-based diagnosis.

    by mamacita on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:22:00 AM PDT

    • i appreciate the salute (0 / 0)

      and the perspective from the world of special education.  i agree that a school-based diagnosis would not be helpful right now.  

      and the answers to...

      Is the child unhappy?  Is the child's behaviors or feelings interfering with his ability to do things he wants to do?

      are yes and no.  i don't really think she struggles much with her place in the world.  

      it's been very helpful to me to read the general consensus that taking a "keep on keeping on" approach might be the best tack.  now off to work on the part about feeling good about the interactions!

      by slackermom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:55:00 PM PDT

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    • Not sure I agree with this. (0 / 0)

      Apologies for being late to the party, here.

      my own personal rule of thumb is, Is the child unhappy?  Is the child's behaviors or feelings interfering with his ability to do things he wants to do?

      I think the problem with following this line is that if a child doesn't realize they're not relating in a conventional way, they sometimes don't realize the problems they have. Then they get out into the real world and the lack of those skills kicks them in the teeth. What I see again and again on Asperger's message boards is people who thought they were doing OK in school or even University, who then get out into the world of work and continually get passed over for jobs, promotions, don't have their ideas taken seriously... because they believed they were doing OK, and because they were happy, educators weren't (IMO) as proactive as they ought to have been in teaching social skills. Personal skills are far more important in moving forward in your career than they ever are in School or other academic settings. I wonder if this phenomenon is missed by educators because by the time it reaches that point, these people have dropped off the educational map. Academic success =/= life success. It took me years after graduation to realize why I had been unable to hold down anything more than the most menial, temporary job.

      "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

      by Expat Briton on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:06:18 AM PDT

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      • that is really helpful to hear.... (0 / 0)

        because while i am looking ahead, right now that means elementary and middle school years.  i haven't done any research on adult issues with aspergers or like conditions... my brother lives in a group living home, but his housemates are low-functioning in terms of life and social skills, so that's the only adult angle i've seen.  i know a bit about adults with add/adhd, since i am one, but again, thinking a bit further on the trajectory sounds like a very good thing to keep in mind.  unless things change drastically, school won't be a huge issue, but unless things change drastically, rigid thinking and very basic social/communication  skills WILL continue to be an issue, so i will try to continue to work on those as lifespan issues, rather than just school-age issues.  (and of course, get help if we get stuck).  thanks for the heads up on thinking past childhood... i am out of my professional league once a kid reaches 9 years old, so adulthood seems like another planet to me.

        by slackermom on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:36:03 PM PDT

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        • if you're interested, (0 / 0)

          I have some references for books or CDs that target social behavior in young kids.  There are also books that address the anxiety that is frequently co-morbid with Asperger's and helps give kids a sense of control over feelings that sometimes feel out of control (not sure if your munchkin is experiencing that).  The approach is to break down social skills like a task analysis, and then address areas of weakness through explicit teaching.  There's one song that goes, "People like it when we say hello. Hello!" and so on.  

          I don't know if Asperger's is part of the picture or not in your case, but I think the skills-training approach can be helpful for lots of kids on and off the spectrum.

          Hope this doesn't come across as pushy. I can get a little over-zealous :)

          by mamacita on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:48:09 PM PDT

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      • that's interesting (0 / 0)

        The children I know with Asperger's are pretty aware quite early in elementary school that they feel lonely, or feel like they don't fit in, or feel like there's some secret code that they can't crack, or feel self-conscious because of their intense emotional reactions, or are bewildered when people walk away after 15 minutes of a monologue they've heard 10 times before about dinosaurs or rabbits or how each assasinated president died.... If someone takes the time to listen to them, I believe their unhappiness becomes evident.  To me it's quite different from an introverted child who
        may have one or two friends and not be interested in group activities. That child may be quite socially competent, and not have a need for lots of friends or acquaintances.

        I think students with Asperger's are sometimes overlooked in school settings because schools are not directly tasked with teaching social skills.  Many Asperger's students function at or above the average level and don't really hit the teacher's radar, unless the teacher is sensitized to the social difficulties by his or her own outside research. It's important for parents to recognize how their children are doing academically AND socially, and to bring things to the school's attention. And I believe that parents are more aware than ever before of the signs to look for.  Sometimes parents fear there's something different about their child but they fear labels.  The school district can't proceed with assessment or treatment without the parents' informed consent.  Sometimes kids fall through for that reason, with teachers trying year after year to point out the struggles of the child.

        I've written here before about the difficulties of finding students with Asperger's to be eligible for special ed services, such as social skills training, because their academic learning is not affected.  And special ed was designed to assist children who have difficulty with learning.  However, my argument is that students learn a lot from each other, especially when they challenge one another's beliefs, and if a student is not navigating the social world, it might well affect his academics.  Because I totally agree with you that a high IQ or excellent grades  -- plus $4  -- will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.  You've got to have the whole package to be successful.

        In general, I think schools are better at working with students on the spectrum than they were even 10 years ago.  So many adults with Asperger's haven't benefitted from that.

        Wow, sorry for the novella :)

        by mamacita on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:41:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I think the problem is.. (0 / 0)

          ..that within an academic setting, the improvements in social behavior can be somewhat amplified. The child thinks "hey, I've cracked it, I can at least get by!" somewhere in High School, and in that context they have, but moved to another context, not so much. There may also be an aspect that many of the boards that I read, at least, are populated by adults who got through school before Asperger's was an accepted diagnosis who have self-diagnosed, or received a diagnosis as part of therapy as an adult. It might be the case that less awareness and understanding when they were younger meant they didn't fully understand where they were going wrong while they were improving, and so kids who have a firmer understanding of their difficulties and better education to help with it won't run into these issues. In the end, I think I just don't know whether this will be as big an issue for the newer generation who're coming up through school.
          I really don't hear a lot of people relating their earlier years at school where the monologue issue is most likely to come up, but I will observe that even without help, most of us will figure out to a degree that we shouldn't do things that inappropriate on our own, so that's not really what I was addressing. It's understanding how far we've come, and how far we've still got to go as we age that I think I'd be most concerned about. (Speaking of which, practice interviews, it occurs to me, would probably be one of the most useful things you could offer these kids as they age.)

          I liked the novella - I remember your comments on special ed, and agree it's a real problem.

          "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

          by Expat Briton on Wed May 07, 2008 at 09:21:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • it almost sounds like (0 / 0)

            you would want some pre-voc training?  Like, how to interview, how to interact with boss and colleagues?  Is that what you're thinking of?

            I wonder what institution/agency would be most appropriate for that kind of training, and how the people who might unknowingly need it could access the services.

            by mamacita on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:49:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • Yes, that's exactly it. (0 / 0)

              Possibly expanded to "pitfalls of office politics," and the like. It's sad to say, but it seems like a lot of people need a "how to know when a colleague is stabbing you in the back," course. In some ways, the sort of pitfalls I think a lot of people, not just those with Asperger's, need to learn about - how to present your work to your boss so they appreciate what you're doing and such. I think for this group, understanding that it's not just producing outstanding work that's important, but making sure others notice you're producing outstanding work.

              "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

              by Expat Briton on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • FWIW (0 / 0)

                I agree that's a skill that many people lack, including me.  Maybe the people who score more highly on the "justice" than "mercy" domain on personality questionnaires?  The ones who haven't quite outgrown the "But it's not fair!" indignation?  There are some real sharks in some workplaces that look for any advantage, any weakness in their colleagues.  If need be, they'll invent one, all to make themselves look good to the boss.  Some people are much better at playing the game than others.  It would be great if we could all have a class on that!

                by mamacita on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:02:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  • slackermom (not!), are you in CA? n/t (0 / 0)

    by mamacita on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:08:03 PM PDT

    • oh how i wish! (0 / 0)

      just a 3,000 mi. drive away :)

      by slackermom on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:27:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • oh, shoot (0 / 0)

        In CA we have a collection of Diagnostic Centers that are really useful for teasing things out.  Not sure if they have them where you are.  They pull together a multidisciplinary team to assess a child.  Depending on the referral question, that could mean speech therapist, geneticist, developmental pediatrician, clinical psych, school psych, etc.  And it's F-R-E-E to families.  

        The catch is that referrals can only come from the school members of an IEP team.  Parents can't refer their kids, though they can ask the IEP team to refer.  It might be worth calling a school psych in your district to inquire if such a service is available.  Here, the Dx Center will only consider a referral if the district has performed a complete assessment first -- the district needs to have exhausted their diagnostic capabilities.  But for an initial IEP, the parents can always refuse to sign (which disallows any services, but also doesn't place your child in special ed).

        by mamacita on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:12:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • I know! (0 / 0)

      She is just NOT a slacker!

      by Suzanne77 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:12:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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