Mother Talkers

To Eat Or Not To Eat

Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:17:19 PM PDT

I've been thinking about food lately. Actually, I think about food all the time, since I'm the person in our house who shops for it and prepares it and we're all big eaters.

But what I've been thinking about more is how normal it is for women not to eat, how a woman can be engaging in very bizarre behavior when it comes to food and no one really bats an eye. For example:

  1. I work with a woman who is thin to the point where her shoulder bones jut out. I seriously could put my fingers around her ankle - and I don't have big hands. She keeps a big jar of candy in her office and routinely brings in homemade cupcakes for the staff. But she never eats the treats herself, at least not in view of anyone else in the office.
  1. Another woman I work with, whom I see only occasionally, gets thinner and thinner and thinner each time, like she is slowly disappearing. This is a bright, dynamic person who is very smart and engaging. But I took her out to lunch at a very nice restaurant and had to sit there while she pretended to eat. I seriously don't think she took more than one bite of her food.

I've heard others talking about these two woman and remarking on how "tiny" or "petite" they are, words that really have positive connotations in my book. They are both clearly considered to be very attractive. It bothers me that no one else seems to find their thinness excessive.

I guess I'm really sensitive to the issue because my sister, who is a dancer, has had an eating disorder since she was about ten. She's been struggling lately because she finally gave up smoking and she's put on a few pounds. I think she looks fantastic, but it's so hard to have a meal with her and watch her visibly struggle to actually make herself eat anything. It is simply reflexive not to eat.

What got me writing about this was seeing the comment the post about Angelina Jolie where people said she may have fainted because she's not eating enough - and she's pregnant with twins! And she probably had to have IVF because she was too thin to get pregnant otherwise! And yet she is basically our ideal of feminine beauty - even to the women on this site!

I don't have any great philosophical point to make, just that I wish we all (and I include myself in this statement) could just eat and enjoy our food and enjoy our bodies. This strikes me as one of those issues that we're all supposed to be past as second- or third-wave feminists. And yet it's still there, plain as day, plain as that big plate of cookies that no woman in the office wants anyone to see her eating from. Plain as the fact that the "skinny girls" are the pretty ones. Any thoughts?

P.S. And don't even get me started on how clueless most of the men I know are about this issue. Although my DH, God love him, is always talking about how a few of my friends are just too skinny - and he's right.

Tags: food, anorexia, bulimia, eating disorder (all tags)

Permalink | 124 comments

  • I just saw a (0 / 0)

    picture of Jenna Bush in her wedding dress, and I thought she looked overly thin. I'm betting the daughter of the president is someone who is gonna diet herself to perfection for her marriage day.

    Skinny can really look unhealthy...I agree, mpg.

  • Hmmm (0 / 0)

    well, I wouldn't comment on someone's weight.  I had an aquaintance in college who was tiny. She looked like an easily-snapped twig.  But she was strong and healthy and ate a lot.  

    I don't know, thinness can be caused by a lot of things.  So can not eating.  Disease and medication can make you nauseous, and I've certainly been too poor to eat at restaurants.  

    That said, it is pathetic that many women do seem to think they shouldn't eat, or shouldn't eat much in public.  It drives DH mad because he is always trying to get his fellow students to go for lunch breaks, and they'll be like "no, I'll just eat these carrot sticks and be fine for 4 more hours."  They probably eat after they go home, but I couldn't stand to do that.  Regular meals/snacks help keep up energy!

    • Oh I know people like that too (0 / 0)

      But I think if you spend time with women who are really, really thin (and get thinner all the time) and actually share meals with them, you can tell the difference. Maybe that's because I lived for years with someone who didn't eat. Even today when I see my sister, I can tell right away if she's been eating or not. It's the first thing I notice, because when her life gets stressful, she doesn't eat.

      The first woman I mentioned, by the way, will walk around and try to get all the other women to eat the cupcakes and I swear to you, in three years, I've never seen her eat one. Even at the celebration they had for her when she was getting married.

  • Unrealistic expectations. (0 / 0)

    I was one of those very, very thin young women.  Weighed 103 lbs when I married.  In fact, even before my last pregnancy, I weighed 117 lbs.  

    Ok.  So I don't weigh 103 lbs any longer.  I'll never see 117 lbs. again, either.  But, I'm still at what's considered a healthy weight for my height.  I'll be honest...I'd love to drop ten pounds.  I talk about doing so.  But to be honest, while I could do it easily, I'm starting to fear that doing so wouldn't be a great idea.  I'm not sure we aren't creating our own problems by losing weight and gaining it back.  

    • true enough (0 / 0)

      I weighed 103 when I entered college.  I was so thin the dorm advisor was questioning my friends about my eating habits.  Ha!  I was eating everything in sight - my mom was such a horrible cook that cafeteria food was wonderful!  My first year in college I grew breasts, which I rather liked having.

      I'm with you about the weight loss.  Sure, I'd love to drop ten from where I am now, which is quite thick around the middle.  But best not to mess with it, I think.

      • You folks must be tall (or at least not short) (0 / 0)

        I weighed 103 in high school, but I sure wasn't thin.  

        • I'm somewhere between (0 / 0)

          5'7" and 5'8".

          • how did you ever do that? (0 / 0)

            I'm fessing up here- I'm the same height and was looking good at 140 in my early 20s. Now I'm at 170 and I still don't look heavy, although I'm not exactly the college aged gazelle either.

            if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

            by thais on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:15:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • yay (0 / 0)

              me too! :) I'm a polish girl, i think my ankles each weigh around 10 pounds. I'm 5-10" so a little taller, but the lowest I weighed as a grown person was around 135. 170 is my goal weight for this weight loss round, 165 is the ideal (license) weight for me.

              • Me too! Me too! (0 / 0)

                Another Polish girl here!  Hearty peasant stock.  I'm 5'6 and hovering around 170 after child #3 despite my 30 minutes of pilates and dance videos nightly. Yet I'm still proportional for the most part.  I could stand to lose some more belly fat but I don't think I look like a fat person whatever that means.

                Sometimes I get depressed about the actual # of my clothes size.  But then, my body is very strong.  I carried about 33 lbs of children in the past 4 years and birthed them with no pain meds.  My hands and size 11 feet are huge and I am the definition of big boned.  But then again, these hands and feet have bounced miles over the years putting my children to sleep as infants.  

                The smallest I was a size 8 and I looked pretty gaunt.  Even then I never had a delicate build.  At my skinniest, it was hard find bracelets that would fit my bony arms because the bones were set far apart.  Now after children they're stretched even more.

                I try to remember my grandfather.  He had a similar build and was freakishly strong.  He used to cut down trees and literally haul the trunks up to his hunting camp for firewood.  He'd tell my dad to be careful and try not to hurt himself when he's come up to help his older inlaw.  My body comes from that heritage and I should be proud of it even if it isn't the current slender feminine ideal.

                • I'm part Irish peasant (0 / 0)

                  I sometimes imagine myself going down the rows, sowing or reaping potatoes with a big burlap apron.

                  • Itchy (0 / 0)

                    The thought of burlap makes me feel itchy. It's a picturesque fabric.

                  • sturdy Norwegian stock myself (0 / 0)

                    My mother and her sister, and my sister and I, all conform very closely to our Norwegian forebearers. My aunt and I have curvy builds, with hourglass figures (ok, the bottom half is a leeetle bit out of balance, but not much to quibble about!) and my sister and my mother both have slimmer builds. I never believed my mom when she said we were all "Norwegians", until I saw pictures my mom took at Vigeland Park when she and my Dad went to Norway for their 25th anniversary.

                    I swear to Jebus, this is me. Curvy waist, sturdy legs, strong body? Yup!

                    • gorgeous! (0 / 0)

                      rock on with your beautiful self!

                      • FWIW, Vigelund Park (0 / 0)

                        is one of the most beautiful museum/sculpture parks I've ever seen (I ended up spending 48 hours in Oslo on a business trip in 2004 and had just enough time to hire a taxi to drive me around the park.) The outdoor park is set up in the stages of life from birth to death, and they're all so moving. There's a statue of a little toddler boy having a temper tantrum, love and adulthood, old men and women supporting each other in that last phase of life, and a fantastically phallic obelisque at the top of the park made of gorgeous nudes twisted together. It's so spiritual.

                    • That's funny... (0 / 0)

                      We know that we are almost entirely British.  Sometimes this still really resonates with me when I watch BBC and think, yeah....those are the people we look like! Just the other day our local newspaper ran a story about a kid in England.  He could have been my son's twin.

                    • I know the feeling... (0 / 0)

                      When we went to Denmark, I was really freaked out...I kept looking around and thinking "They all look like me!!". People would come up and speak to my husband first in English...but they always assumed that I could speak Danish.

                      And I'm a 15 generations American mutt.

                • Sturdy Mac Truck (0 / 0)

                  here, too. A little, tiny Asian friend of mine told me I was one of those, "big white girls". That I am.

            • I'm very thin boned, if that makes sense... (0 / 0)

              long thin bones.  I wear a size four ring, if that puts it into perspective.  I still have a difficult time getting adult sized watches or bracelets to work for me.  I'm a bit over 140 lbs. now.  I would love to be 135 lbs, but, hey, if it happens, it happens.  

              Bad thing about being that thin when I was younger is that now people act as if I had become HUGE!  I'm still thinner than most of the people who will remark, but I guess it makes no difference.  Honestly, its easy to see why women would develop eating disorders.

        • seriously? (0 / 0)

          I'm trying to imagine just how short you'd have to be for 103 to not be thin. I'm 5'3", and weighed about 103 when I was in college. And I was tiny. Not scary looking thin or anything...but I certainly didn't have any extra weight on me anywhere! Maybe it's the word "thin"? I was helping some social scientists lately with their data analysis and we ran into trouble with some of the words they used. It would seem that some people see the word "thin" as a good thing, and some people see "thin" and imagine a skeleton.

          • I've been there (0 / 0)

            and not thin, either.  I'm just very short.  I've never been thin.  But I did used to be pretty cute.

          • 4'11" (0 / 0)

            We are a stocky lot.   I wear a size 4 wedding ring too, and I'm willing to bet my fingers are about half as long as tbj's.  They're about as long as the average 8-yr-old's fingers.

            Of course, 103 was a lot thinner than the less-than healthy 135 or so I am these days.  But I only got down to 103 playing soccer 6 days a week (on defense!  Aaarrr!!), and that of course is not a slimming activity, but rather one that transformed my stockiness in to awesome buffness.  

            • Hey... (0 / 0)

              This is a personal question, so feel free to not answer it or to tell me to get lost... My kids are set to be very short adults. We are considering (under an endocrinologist's recommendation)a program of human growth hormone. There are lots of "ifs" before this happens, but I'm just trying to gather information. My son will be seriously short for a man, so there's a good chance that he'll be getting shots. But my daughter is set to be between 4'10" and 5' tall as an adult. I'm not sure that being that height as a woman is actually a problem...or at least not enough of one to justify the HGH. I'm 5'3", and I never felt that my height was a detriment in any way. My question for you is: did you find being under 5' hard in any way, either as a kid or as an adult? If someone had offered you the chance to be 3-6 inches taller, would you have taken it (knowing that it involves daily shots...with a diabetic needle, so pretty painless)?

              Hope I'm not overstepping bounds here...just hunting for personal experience.

              • Jumping inI'm 4'11" or 5" (0 / 0)

                I'm 4'11" or 5".  I'd like to be exactly three inches taller.  More importantly, I think my brother would like to be a bit taller.  For a girl, I think you could go either way, but for a boy I would say do it for sure.  That might not sound great, but it's the way it is.

                • Thanks. (0 / 0)

                  That really helps. I appreciate your input. Did you have a hard time in school? Or did/do you feel disadvantaged in some way?

                  • At the time (0 / 0)

                    I would have said yes.  But the older I get, the more I really don't care how tall I am.  I obsess about weight a lot, but not height.  

                    In school, I always thought I hated always being the shortest (it was my signature), but for a couple of years there was a girl shorter then myself, and I sort of felt like she'd stolen my identity.

              • Some experience (0 / 0)

                I have a friend with a son on it because he lost his pituitary gland due to tumors as a young child.  He's graduating high school this year.  Granted this young man is on many other meds too but the HGH is powerful stuff.  Watching him, it's something I would approach with caution.

              • aussieyank (0 / 0)

                How short is your son likely to be?  Our younger guy is unlikely to ever attain my lofty stature, and I'm 5'4".  We haven't really looked into HGH, though.  How did your endocrinologist decide that HGH was appropriate for your son?  At what age would it begin?

                On the other hand, my elder son was recently diagnosed with a lysosomal storage disorder.  Lately short hasn't been seeming at all bad, you know?  But we really can't let that be the basis for making decisions about his brother.  

                • I know.. (0 / 0)

                  I have a friend whose children both have leukemia. It makes me feel guilty for being so very worried about my kids being short. However...I can see the effects of being little already in how kids react to them and in how they feel about themselves. It's not something that I want to affect them permanently.

                  The story: their father is 5'2", and I'm 5'3". As people always jokingly say "well, you were never going to breed giants, were you?!". True. However...I'm average for a woman. DH is very short. His parents are 5'10" and 6'4". His sisters are tall (all at least 5'6").  He has one grandfather that is very short, and one child in each family set is short. That doesn't look like simple genetic shortness...which I never noticed until the endocrinologist started asking us questions about our families. My family follows the usual pattern: kids not shorter than the parents. Most kids wind up somewhere between the parents (although there is a trend for kids being taller these days). What this pattern looks like is something else...still genetically inherited, but not simple height. There are a few options for what it could be, but we may never be absolutely sure. I'm just counting myself lucky that it isn't one of the ones that also affects mental and intellectual capability...my kids are both very advanced in those respects.

                  So the endocrinologist has been following the kids for a year now, to see how fast they are growing and whether or not it fits a normal growth curve. Both my kids are on fairly normal curves, but below the first percentile. For my daughter, that means an adult height of 4'10"-5' tall. For my son, we're not sure since he's really far below the curve. But likely around 5'. HGH can help with idiopathic short stature (no known cause), regardless of whether or not there's a deficiency. However, it works best if there is a deficiency. You can take it at any time until puberty hits (at which time the bones fuse and you're out of luck), but the earlier the better. So we're waiting for one more appointment in October, a bit of soul searching, lots of research, and advice...and then we might start. The endocrinologist wants to test them for HGH deficiency, but it's not a very fun test (several hours of blood being drawn every 30 minutes or so), so I'm persuading him to skip it. If we decide to put them on it, it doesn't really matter to us if they are actually deficient or not. It's very scary stuff...anytime you're altering the chemical makeup of your kids' bodies, it's terrifying. The research doesn't show any significant side effects (or really any at all...other than a loss of body fat and an increase in muscle)...but who knows what they'll find out in 25 years? And that's the scary part.

                  My sympathies to you for your elder son. I understand how short doesn't seem at all bad sometimes!

                  My apologies for hijacking this thread. Although I am kind of glad that it isn't in a "current" diary...I'm still a bit sensitive about the whole thing, since I'm not sure what we're doing just yet.

                  • interesting (0 / 0)

                    It does sound like there's some weird confluence of things lurking in your husband's genome there.  My son's height probably isn't anything unusual.  His birthmom is 4'8", from a region where diets are traditionally low in fat and protein.  It takes a couple of generations for people to reach full genetic potential after moving to a varied diet.  

                    And I know what you mean about the way other people react.  Everyone's surprised to find out how old he is; they always think he's younger and treat him that way.  He's 5.5 but much smaller than the 4 year old on our block, plus he's super cute which only makes it worse.  I held him back for a year before starting kindy and he's still probably going to be the smallest in his class, even though he'll be among the oldest.  

                    It's hard to know what to do; a part of me wants to shrug and say, "well, somebody's got to be shortest".  Plus sometimes I think, everybody around me is freaking out about consuming small quantities of exogenous hormone in meats and dairy and I'm thinking of injecting my kid with a huge bolus of the strong stuff?  But I really should be at least researching it more.  My husband is more concerned than I am on this, and I do give more weight to the masculine opinion on this topic.  I suppose if DH were 5'2" I'd be tempted to just say, "you know best, dear".

                    • Yup. (0 / 0)

                      My husband feels pretty strongly about it. He was given the option to have his legs lengthened when he was ten or so..but that involved surgery and excruciating pain for an inch or so of growth. He decided it wasn't worth it. But he's pretty keen on the HGH idea. He says he wishes it had been available to him as a child. And that he won't put his son through the things that he had to go through if there's another way. And not being male, I have to believe him.

                      It is worth looking into for your son. Not that I think it's the solution for everyone...but it's good to know what's out there while you have time to do it (the doc will need to follow his growth for a year). And according to our endocrinologist, if he's well under the first percentile (and that sounds likely), it's probably covered by your insurance company. It's easier to get it in the US these days than here.

                      I hear you on the exogenous hormone. I don't broadcast what we're thinking of doing amongst our friends and family because I know I would get disapproval and lectures.

                      • how early? (0 / 0)

                        I know you said the earlier the better.  But our elder son is going to be starting infusion therapy in the next month or two - that means spending most of a day every week or alternate week in an urgent care facility.  I don't want this to negatively impact our younger son, but I think we're going to need some time for our family to adjust to the new reality.  I can't imagine finding the energy to start down another therapeutic route for a while.

                        • Wow. (0 / 0)

                          That really doesn't sound like fun. I feel for you. Basically, the HGH can only accelerate growth year by year. So if your kid would naturally grow 2 centimetres in a year, on HGH he'll grow 4 (or more, if he's actually deficient). You can start it at anytime...people even take drugs to delay puberty so that they have more time to induce growth. I think I'd avoid that if I could...the only thing worse than being a short guy in high school would be a short guy whose voice hasn't cracked! So if you start early (age 3), you'll get more adult height. No one can tell you how much more, or how much you can really expect. It's all a bit up in the air, and really depends on his hormone levels and receptor levels.

                          For what it's worth, the actual program doesn't sound that bad. One shot a day, six days a week. Very small amounts, and through a diabetic needle (so tiny). It's certainly better than what diabetic kids have to go through. I've spoken to a few parents, who say that their kids even give it to themselves, and that it's completely painless. You just have to get over that initial fear of giving your kid a shot.

                • oh, lord (0 / 0)

                  Lyn, I just googled lysosomal storage disorder. Just hugs, endless hugs.

              • I would never, ever, ever (0 / 0)

                but I'm a girl.

                My parents actually considered it, took me in for a whole bunch of tests.  It has creeped me out for years that they considered it.  I have never ever wanted to be taller, or in any way different.  I fit in in my family, though I am the smallest.

                I've known a few very short men.  I know they had it hard but they turned in to admirable people.  My understanding, though, is that you have to start the therapy when the kid is young - too young to make an informed decision about long term injection therapy.

                When I did read up on it when I was in high school and being incensed about the whole thing, I was not impressed.  It seemed like a lot of pain and risk for not much reward.  I sometimes felt that way about the venom-desensitization therapy I was on for 5 years, that may or may not have done a damn thing, but at least there I had the sure knowledge of what we were trying to avoid.

        • I'm short (0 / 0)

          As I mentioned above, on me 5'4" and 103 was insufficient for breast development, and thin enough to worry strangers.  By any measure I wasn't carrying enough fat.  And not a bit of muscle on me, either.  On the other hand, I've always been heavier than I appear.  So maybe I'm just dense.

        • Ha! (0 / 0)

          It's all about bone structure.  At 103, I'd look deathly ill, and I'm only 5'3".  Frankly, if I'm even below 120, I don't look right -- but I have a medium frame and lots of muscle (120 for me is about a size 4).  My cousin, on the other hand, is a full 3 inches taller than me, but looked flabby at a size 4, simply because of her teeny-tiny bones.

          Right now, I'd love to be a "fat" 130-135.  Post baby #2, I still have 20 pounds to get to my prepreg weight, and that weight was 20-25 pounds above where I'd prefer to be.

    • I don't think I weighed 117 (0 / 0)

      when I was fourteen and in the best shape of my life! :) That's us tall kids with big boobs for ya!

      I'm working on the weight and it's coming off SO SLOWLY. Gah.

      • My boobs have been the same size (0 / 0)

        forever.  Not big and not small.  I'm the only person I knew who didn't have to buy a bigger bra while pregnant.  Afterwards, I had about two days of engorgement in which they were really big, but that's about it.

    • Creating our own problems (0 / 0)

      About a year ago, I got turned onto (yet another) book about food/diet/ways of eating called How to Become Naturally Thin by Eating More.  After years of bouncing up/down over time, I think I might finally drop and stay down.  It's mostly common sense that she talks about, but when you put all of the ideas into one place it's (at least, it was for me) a "eureka moment."

      So, now I'm only paying attention to what I eat and pretty well ignoring how much or how often I eat.  Theoretically, my body will do the rest over time -- though it may take time to really see changes.  Of course, my final "feast" (when you stop dieting, your body demands it) was at the beginning of pregnancy -- so now I have quite a bit to drop from gaining 50 pounds with this baby!

      The best part?  I'm not starving.  And still, I'm dropping 1-2 pounds per week without having to have all of my focus fall on food.  What a relief.

  • modern values bizarre eating habits (0 / 0)

    I think back to that part in Gone With The Wind when Scarlett's Mammy brings in a complete meal for Scarlett to eat pre-barbeque at the Wilkes', so that she wouldn't eat anything during the party and appear more ladylike. I don't know if this was the actual tradition in the anti-bellum South, but it was something the author felt was socially accpetable to talk about in, what, the 1930s, when the novel was written?

    Without getting into the normative words "skinny", "healthy", and "fat", I will say that social constructs favor women engaging in bizarre eating habits. How many self-help articles have I read giving "helpful" suggestions like, eat half of your portion of food in a restaurant, then dump salt all over the rest so you're not tempted to eat it. Or, eat a salad before you go to a party so you don't fill up on party food. Basically saying, don't eat in public. It's baaaad. OK, I'm cherry-picking a few choice statements, but if those aren't quasi-anorexic eating habits normalised, I'll eat my hat (but only half. Hat is so calorie-rich.).

  • I went through a stage (0 / 0)

    where I wouldn't eat on dates. You know I'd fool around with a salad, but not eat. I think it came from living in Hollywood for a brief time in my early 20's. I was a size six and people were always coming up to me to helpfully suggest I try this or that new exercise or this or that diet pill.

    I returned to Florida a size 4 with cheekbones and clavicles. T'was not pretty (on me).

    It took me a while to get normal again. When my husband I went on our first date I ordered an appetizer, entree, and dessert and I even brazenly reached out with a fork and took a bite of his food. He found all this utterly charming.

    I will love this man till the day I die!!!

    • Yes! (0 / 0)

      OMG -- I'll never forget going out for a pseudo-date (I'd already told him again and again he was too old for me, but he insisted that "friends" was fine.) and clearing my plate of steak, potato, and vegetables.  I moved on to dessert and didn't bat an eye.

      He commented on how "odd" it was to see a woman who ate and clearly enjoyed it (I was rather thin at the time), and I'm still unsure whether he found it healthy or disgusting.  No matter, since I never saw him again...

  • When I taught theatre (0 / 0)

    we spent a lot of time on the implications of how much space people were "allowed" to occupy and how it was a statement of power onstage to take up the most space.  Not a big leap there to the "big burly man" taking up a lot of space (just think of how men are "supposed" to sprawl in a chair) and the skinny skinny  women sitting with legs and arms crossed to take up as little space as possible...

    The kids were always blown away when they looked around the room and saw that reflected in the way that they were occupying the space.

  • Here is a blog (0 / 0)

    I like by a woman whose daughter has anorexia.

    Go here read this.

  • I'm big. I"m rubenesque. You may even call m (0 / 0)

    fat.  I'm 5'10 and I weigh 216 pounds. I wear a size 18 -- sometimes a 20. There. there are my numbers. they are numbers they have no power over me because they are just numbers...  and you know what

    I'm Frickin GORGEOUS.  As a matter of fact...I'm STUNNING.

    I eat. I eat alot and i love my food.  And what i've noticed is that the two super skinny borderline food issue women in the theater are completely freaked out by the way I openly eat and talk about food - and frankly I think they're jealous.  

    this is who I am.  life is too short for me to try to starve myself for...what?  a size 14??? I think not.  
    chow down my friends and enjoy!

    • I love you! (0 / 0)

      and your response!

      Yeah, I love food and love to eat. Sometimes I order a salad when I go out but often it's the enchiladas or the sandwich. I really and truly don't think I'd enjoy life as much always worrying about what I eat. I am overweight but my cholesterol, blood pressure and blood sugar are good, so I don't get too worked up about it.

      Really enjoyed my pork loin with roasted potatoes and carrots tonight.

    • Jessica's latest (0 / 0)

      Hey, I was thinking of you yesterday. I bought steak for dinner and Jess took one look at it and said, "Mummy, I love red meat. It's so beautiful." Heh. A little carnivore!

      • Isn't it funny... (0 / 0)

        I've got one true carnivore (that boy would eat nothing else if I let him), and one kid that has to be cajoled into touching meat. She had a chat with one of my vegetarian friends the other day about why she's a vegetarian (which was fine with me...I don't eat a huge amount of meat, although I enjoy it when I do), so I'm expecting the "I'm a vegetarian" announcement any second.

        • making dinners must be a reeeeeal (0 / 0)

          fun exercise at your house...

          • So far it's fine. (0 / 0)

            I make a dinner with lots of different things in it, and everyone eats what makes them happy (like roast chicken, roast veggies, and a green salad). I require trying a little of everything (not out of the two year old...that's just too hard), but other than that I don't worry too much. If she decides that she's vegetarian for moral reasons (and I wouldn't put it past her), then it'll get hard. I'm not going to force her to eat something that she really believes is wrong in some way. But for now, she will eat a bit of meat, and the boy loves fruit of all sorts, so it's not too bad. If I feel like the nutrients are missing from DS's day, I just make a crumble (last night's was rhubarb, rasberry, strawberry, and passionfruit). Plenty of different nutrients in there, and I can guarantee that it'll be gone. Or I make a sneaky batch of carrot, zucchini and chocolate chip cookies. :)

            • recipe for the cookies? (0 / 0)

              do you have a recipe you can share? Grated carrot and zucchini are my secret weapons - I sneak them into everything, as much to get Himself eating his daily requirements as it is for Jess.

            • and ps (0 / 0)

              are you growing the rhubarb? I'd love to grow some, but have hestitated because the leaves are poisonous...

              • Yup. (0 / 0)

                I'm so excited...my digger's club stuff is just fabulous. I've decided that tomato leaves are poisonous too, and surely no child is actually keen enough on veggies to go out and munch on either plant. But they have been warned also that the dog pees on everything in the garden, so they have to bring food to me before they eat it. The threat of dog pee seems to work. I'll send you the recipe as soon as I can...things just got nuts here.

                • I heart the Diggers (0 / 0)

                  I truly, truly love the Diggers (site here). You make a good point about just schooling the kidlet. Rhubarb is a great cool-season plant. I think I'll pop over to Ceres and buy some tomorrow. Maybe there'll be enough up when you get here to have a homemade crumble! ;-)

              • Don't worry about it (0 / 0)

                The toxin in rhubarb is oxalic acid, which is also present in lots of other foods, including spinach. Sorrel is chock full of the stuff, but it won't cause problems if you eat the occasional sorrel and onion tart (thank god--I love the stuff). If you were to eat it every day, sure--it could make you sick. If you ate pounds of the stuff in one sitting, it might kill you, but that isn't exactly a likely scenario.

                As for rhubarb, the plant does not look like food. The leaves are huge (and absolutely beautiful in the garden). The leaves and raw stalks are very sour (that oxalic acid again), so it's not something kids will really want to snack on. As a precaution, you just need to teach Jess not to eat things randomly. I use a lot of edible flowers in salads, and I made sure to occasionally remind the kids (when they were younger) that it was OK to eat flowers in this part of the garden, but not in other parts of the garden. I freaked out a bit when I learned that my lantana is highly toxic (as in, eat three berries and die), so I used to take my kids out nearly daily and tell them not to eat it. They understood the concept of poison quite clearly.

                And once you have your rhubarb growing, be sure to make a rhubarb pie with spearmint--add about a half cup chopped spearmint to the fruit (no strawberries in this one--just rhubarb). Divine.

                • thanks, Jen! (0 / 0)

                  much obliged for that. You're right that Jess doesn't nibble on things randomly and that she even has learned a measure of control when it comes to ripping plants out of the ground. And thanks for the tip; I have an out-of-control spearmint plant that could use some trimming!

    • I'm about 2 inches shorter (0 / 0)

      and about 20 pounds lighter than you but unlike you, I truly am fat.  It has to do with sporadic exercise, mostly.  

      • Fitness vs. weight (0 / 0)

        I think weight is an awful metric for happiness.  I always weigh about the same.  When I spent most of my time horseback riding and working in the barn, I weighed 122 and was a size 2.  When I was working my desk job too hard to exercise I was 128 and a size 8.  

        All my cute clothes are a size 6 so I try to hover around that since I hate clothes shopping.  That works much better than trying to hit a specific weight!

        --R

        • Kinda the same (0 / 0)

          I'll obviously never be the 103 lb high school kid again.  But within a 10-lb range, over the last 10 yrs or so, I've been ass-kickingly buff, ready to take you down in a swordfight or a fistfight, admiring my own muscles in pictures, and also...not.  I'm really on the dissipated side right now.  No muscle tone, bad posture, gut hanging over my pants...I really need to get a lot more exercise to be healthier, happier, and a better fit for my pants.  But I probably won't weigh much less.

    • Good for you. (0 / 0)

      I'll save the "doesn't matter what size you are" platitudes. Frankly, they get old. But I'm glad to hear that you love yourself.

      I'm a naturally skinny person who LOVES food. I eat more than most people twice my size. I will kill for a really good dinner (made by someone else). And you know what? No matter how many people make comments about my size, I'm always going to be the size that I am. I couldn't care less if they don't like it that I can eat whatever I want and be little. I don't think being little is the perfect way to be. It's just the way I am.

      My husband's family tends toward the heavier side of the scale. My family tends toward the small side of the scale. I'm very conscious that my children could be either (although my daughter seems similar to me already in metabolism...but then she's four!), and so I have to be very careful that they don't get the idea that the way I naturally am is the "right" way to be. And that they don't hear their grandmother talking about her diets too often!

    • I'm 180 and a 14/16 (0 / 0)

      in high school I was 125 (5'3") with only 8% bodyfat.  I was doing football practice 6 hours a day, 6 days a week.  I was a size 9 or 11.

      After 2 kids and puberty, my goal weight is 155-165.  I look GOOOD at that weight, and it makes exercising easier.  

      I run 3x a week, do curves 3x a week and bike everywhere.  I'm VERY active and health now.

      Like you, my cholesterol is fine.  I've got no shortness of breath.  I'd like to be in better shape because of my health, but I'm in no panic.

      BTW, the only people I can't eat in front of are my inlaws.  MIL is a size 3 and makes comments about my size ALL THE TIME.

      What do you mean, uh-oh? Toddler & baby pictures

      by round peg inna square hole on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:18:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Weight is often not (0 / 0)

        the determining factor in being "healthy".  I come from a thin family.  Despite being thin, everyone has high blood pressure by the time they're in their 30's.  High cholesterol, too, it seems.  Both my brother and me, anyway.  Diabetes is also rampant.  

        • Yeah (0 / 0)

          like my dad.  The doctor didn't think his chest pain was heart-related, in part because he was young and bikerides ~20 miles a day.  Well, it was a heart attack.  The awesome fitness seems to have let him live through it, but that was a real wakeup call for the whole family.

  • My boss (0 / 0)

    has the weirdest/worst eating habits of any adult I know.  For a long time, I never saw her eat anything other than an energy bar, and she HATES when there is a business lunch (where she mostly HAS to eat).  Apparently, before I knew her, she was overweight. Now she is definitely THIN.  Her bad eating is an in-house joke, but more of the "if we don't laugh, we'll cry" at how little she eats.

    As the mom of a health and exercise concious teen daughter - I am very sensitive to this issue, and how easily healthy can slip into unhealthy!

    • Business lunches (0 / 0)

      are sneaky.  I gained a lot of weight working at my previous job, where the company was always buying us lunch.  I would be healthier at my new job, working for the cheap government, if not for the fact that it's much more sedentary.

  • there are days (0 / 0)

    when I could cry after class because of the misinformation my middle school students are still getting.  And the worst part is some of it is from doctors not just friends and media.
    they are visibly relieved when the get good information and a message that they are just right!
    They are starving for information about how to be normal and healthy and not about how to look to please a man (or worse, other women).
    I think many, many women suffer from disordered eating and many more from eating disorders.
    Here's a couple of good videos, both on PBS
    Marathon Challenge, this is brand new and an EXCELLENT look at how our bodies work, male and female, work and why we can be "big" and still be healthy and how to ultimately achieve that health.  I've used it in 8th grade.
    This is a little older, but still good: Dying to Be Thin. really explains eating disorders, treatment, and how hard they are to cure.  I've used it in high school.  generates LOTS of discussion.
    Now, if we could deal with the websites that treat Anorexia as an acceptable "life style"

    "The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution." Paul Cezanne

    by educonfidential on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:07:56 PM PDT

    • Or set fire to that Skinny Bitch book. (0 / 0)

      I childproofed my house but they got back in somehow.

      by lonestar canuck on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:09:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • eww yuck (0 / 0)

        And the sequel. Aren't they awful and tacky?

      • Die, Skinny Bitches (0 / 0)

        I haven't read the books, but can't stand what I know of them.

        • I think it was on Jezebel (0 / 0)

          where I read that the language in the book is pretty much the inner monologue of an anorexic - very insulting and negative.   They were saying that it sounds very much like what an anorexic hears in her head.  

          That's not healthy.   There was a display of them at Barnes and Noble the other day and I had to take my 10 year old past it...ugh.  I'd like to slap the "bitch" who wrote them.

          I childproofed my house but they got back in somehow.

          by lonestar canuck on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:47:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Agreed (0 / 0)

            It's interesting that so many diet tips are the same as the advice they give on the pro-ana sites.  

            What bothers me about these famous women who are very thin and seem to have eating disorders is, they profit from it.  Sure, it works for them, but it's so harmful to the rest of us, who, regardless of size, do not benefit at all from their eating disorders.  But boy, do we pay.

            • You know how I look at it? (0 / 0)

              They're going to die without knowing the glory that is a really good plate of pasta putanesca...without loving the joy that comes with cookie dough ice cream on a summer day on teh way home from the beach -- without revelling in the pleasure of wine and brie and grapes on the deck on a spring night before the black flies get too bad, wthout savoring the warm comfort of a finely roasted chicken and some homeade bread on a cold fall night.  

              so they're skinny.  Woop de f*cking doo.  I wish them tremendous joy with their oysterette crackers adn their plain lettuce and soda water.  In the meantime,  I'll be eating their rolls...

  • as for eating in public (0 / 0)

    my sister, who used to own her own aerobics studio and taught 5 or 6 classes a day (plus personal training) tells the story of how she HATED going out to eat with clients.  She was thin (fit and muscular) because of her activity level, but she felt uncomfortable eating anything other than salad in front of them. It was weird, but she felt totally on display and had to keep up the pretense, for them, that eating a salad was the way to be/stay thin.  Otherwise they totally called her out on what she was eating.  She also became a counselor and dealt with eating disorders because she saw so many in the studio.

    "The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution." Paul Cezanne

    by educonfidential on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:10:58 PM PDT

  • It's rough (0 / 0)

    I only know a hand full of women who appear to have a healthy attitude about weight and food, and I am not one of them.  I was going to try to make some kind of point, but the truth is it just makes me angry and sad.

    • I agree with you (0 / 0)

      I didn't start to get a healthy perspective on food until I moved to Paris (different food culture for sure). That helped my self-esteem (and weight, as an incidental by-product), but I didn't actually start really liking my body and feeling sexy until after I had Jess. It was powerful - I could look at myself in the mirror and think "ok, not perfect, but damn, I carried and bore a daughter and wow, that's awesome."

      My other great crusade is to make sure I foster this in Jess and whomever comes after (boy or girl). I don't want Jess to feel miserable about her body until she's 28!

    • I hear you (0 / 0)

      I work with 2 women who love food and seem to like their bodies just fine.  If they comment on what I'm eating, it's usually along the lines of "Where can I get me somma that" instead of, "How many calories does that have?"  Very refreshing.

  • OTOH..... (0 / 0)

    My sis teaches body sculpting 3 days a week and LOVES to run.  She is really very fit and not just skinny, but people (who tend to be overweight and unhealthy)actually accuse her of being bulimic or addicted to exercise.  She hates that she feels that she has to defend herself.  I think that for some, attacking healthy people makes them feel better about being unhealthy.    

    When preggers with ds, I put on a lot of weight (90 lbs)  I haven't tried to take it off, but once I stopped breast feeding him at 1 yo year, I lost 45 lbs in 4 months (I lost 20 right away for a total of 65 lbs and I seem to be still losing).  I still eat and don't really exercise at all, my body is just goofy like that.  

    One of my best friends who didn't know me pre-preggo, actually went to my mother because she was concerned about my weight loss.  My mom had to bust out pics of me from when I was a kid all the way up to right before I got pregnant with ds in order to convince her that there was no eating disorder involved.

  • It is a sad business (0 / 0)

    food is such a pleasure in life, and extreme dieting (losing more than 2 pounds a week, gaining it back, doing it again) is so hard on the body.

    I love food, I grow food, I love to cook, I learned to make some foods I especially love so that I can have them fresh and just to my taste.  I'm well within the healthy weight range for my height and weight.  

    This article was one of the best recent illustrations I've seen of the madness of what is considered 'model-thin'.  To have the BMI of the winning model in that contest (16.1), my 5'4" self would have to weigh 94 pounds - I think I'd need an IV at that point.

    I must say, I haven't known many men who like skinny women (or gay women either).  They like a nice waist, and some curves.  

    I happen to think Angelina Jolie is too skinny.  As white movie actresses go, I'd rather look at Kate Winslet.

    There's also the fact that a little padding may save your life if you need surgeryor get very sick. When I lived in West Africa, I remember some village women looking over a Victoria's Secret catalog that a volunteer had gotten in a box from family, and saying 'look, she's so thin!  Is she sick?  What will happen if she does get sick, she'll die!'

    'Healthy-looking' is not an insult.

    • Although you seldom see them (0 / 0)

      referenced in this country, there are studies that do show that being middle aged and heading into senior years, statistically, it is beneficial to have a few extra pounds.

      • Very true (0 / 0)

        It definitely helped my aunt-in-law when she was in chemo.  

      • just a few, though (0 / 0)

        Outcomes are worse on both ends of the spectrum, but the obese still come out worse by just about every measure.  Very thin people don't as a rule do well with illness, but very heavy people not only have a higher burden of most diseases, they are much more variable and unpredictable in the way they store and metabolize drugs and may not respond well to treatment.

  • Boy I love all this conversation (0 / 0)

    It's so interesting. One thing I would point out though is how many of us seem to know exactly how much we weighed at different points during our lives (I know I do too), what we weight now, and what we "should" weigh. I've never lost the last ten pounds after my second baby and have finally resigned myself that it's there to stay, since he's three.

    Do you suppose most men could offer a detailed catalogue of their weight at different points during their lives? I'm guessing not.

    And hats off to you Katie for not worrying about the "shoulds". That's one good way to live your life. I'm closer to being there than I used to be.

  • Weight is not a moral issue. (0 / 0)

    Health is not a moral issue.

    There are unhealthy fat people. There are unhealthy thin people. There are healthy people who like to exercise and healthy people who like to read. There are unhealthy people who like to read and healthy people who watch lots of TV.

    Yet, we, American society that is, treat fat and thin as moral indicators. Food is thought of bad or good in a generic way when there is no way of eating that is 100% healthy for every body.

    The beauty industry and the marketing industry have made a big business out of making us feel like we NEED to be thin to be pretty. But you know what? We don't have to be Pretty.

  • In my opinion, (0 / 0)

    all food is good in moderation, except pork rinds.

    Pork rinds are evil. I've never had one, because I know I would like them.

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