Mother Talkers

Weekend Open Thread

Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 08:05:51 AM PDT

In case you missed it, Newsweek had a cover story on surrogate mothers. It was balanced and offered a lot of new information such as the disproportionate number of surrogate mothers who are young, military wives. They have health insurance that covers the procedure. Also, surrogacy allows them to earn money and help someone.

Despite some people denouncing it as exploitive, it made me think the opposite: I would consider becoming a surrogate for my closest family or friends. Also, if I needed the additional income, I could think of many worse ways to make money than give this wonderful gift to another couple.

An Effed Up Story: This is unspeakably tragic. Despite his wife’s protestations, a Maryland courtroom ruled that a mentally ill man was entitled to see his children. The man in question, Mark Castillo, went to a hotel, drowned the couple’s three children and then tried – unsuccessfully – to kill himself, according to the Washington Post.

He is in custody now. But what troubled me about this story was his history of making threats to his wife, including killing the children. I think I would have skipped town before handing over my children to this man. I can’t imagine what is running through that poor woman’s head right now. Shudder.

What Patient Rights? I was dismayed at the personal conduct of the gynecologist mentioned in this reader’s letter to New York Times Magazine’s “The Ethicist” column. Her gynecologist has asked her to waive her right to sue in favor of a “binding arbitration to settle any potential disputes,” or the ob-gyn will not treat her. Here is why the practice is unethical, according to ethicist, Randy Cohen:

The law may allow it, and (except in an emergency) medical ethics permit doctors to choose their patients, but a doctor’s criteria for choosing are still subject to scrutiny. Your doctor has instituted a dismal policy that compels patients to surrender a basic legal right in order to receive medical care.

If a single physician were so skittish about malpractice suits (or so uncertain of her own skill) that she would see only patients who would forgo access to the courts, no problem: you could walk down the street to another practitioner.

But if all, or nearly all, doctors make the same demand, there’s nowhere else to go; a fundamental right is eradicated. Conduct that is merely inconvenient if pursued by a few people can become intolerable when widely adopted.

Universal healthcare anyone?

  • ::

Engage Her! My mom and I were recently interviewed for this project, Engage Her! Businesswoman Mable Yee and documentary artist Maria Victoria Ponce are recording the stories of minority women to find out why this growing community does not vote and how we can get more women of color politically involved. Yee recently told me she has leads to air the documentary in various venues, including the Democratic National Convention. Stay tuned...

What else is in the news? What's up with you? Have a good weekend all!

Tags: Washington Post, Mark Castillo, murder, botched suicide, patient bill of rights, The Ethicist, New York Times Magazine, gynecologist, Ob-gyn, universal healthcare, Engage Her!, Mable Yee, Maria Victoria Ponce, Newsweek, surrogate motherhood, military wives (all tags)

Permalink | 62 comments

  • Re: Mark Castillo (0 / 0)

    the most effed up part of the story (other than the dead children, of course) is that the judge denied the wife a restraining order because she was still 'having sex" with him. She reported that she continued to sleep with him under duress and out of fear that if she did not, he would harm her or the children.

    After the hearing, Judge Joseph A. Dugan Jr. declined to issue a permanent order. Dugan noted that Amy Castillo said she had continued to have sex with her husband, including twice on the day he allegedly talked about killing the children. Amy Castillo testified that she had sex with her husband because she was frightened of him and was worried that if she didn't, he would "assume something was wrong" and suspect that she was trying to get a restraining order against him.

    Rape, anyone? Me thinks the judge needs to be relieved of his duties. Ugh.

    ----
    On another somber note, I'm hoping the Rev. Martin Luther King is resting in peace on this 40th anniversary of his murder.

  • Oh. (0 / 0)

    Oh, I wish I had never read this.

  • surrogacy (0 / 0)

    would consider becoming a surrogate for my closest family or friends.

    Me too. I had one particularly awesome pregnancy (rash at the end nonwithstanding) and afterwards I looked into it. Most surrogates are required to be completely done having their own children, which ruled me out. So unfortunately, I think I'm out of it- I won't be trying for another of my own for a year now, and after that I'm feeling like 35, 36 might be a tad old to be a surrogate. Ah well. If they didn't cost so much after they came out, I'd be preggers all the time! :)

    Sorry to those who are pregnant and miserable right now, I was a werido, I get that.

    • If my health allowed, (0 / 0)

      I think I would do it for one of my children or my siblings.  Maybe one or two other close friends.  I don't think its something I could do for strangers, however.

      • i think i might be opposite (0 / 0)

        I think I might have an easier time having the entire thing be 9(ish) months long, a trip to the hospital, and then my part is over. I think it'd be difficult to be the "special aunt".

        That said, i wouldn't offer my own eggs, ever, at all. I perceive the whole process more as my being an incubator for someone else's miracle than a piece of it, you know?

        • I couldn't donate eggs. (0 / 0)

          I'd be just a bit freaked out thinking about people out there carrying my DNA that I didn't know about.  Silly, maybe...

          • it would torment me... (0 / 0)

            i'd always wonder.  as i have watched my dd grow i am continually amazed by how the gene pool operates.  i see so much in her from both me and her father.  it fascinates me, so i'd have a hard time not thinking about that person out there.

            i loved being pregnant and while the thought of carrying a child for another appeals to me, in the end i'd worry about how i'd feel afterwards.  i'm not confident i could keep appropriate boundaries.  i don't think i'd be a good candidate for this one either.

        • I agree... (0 / 0)

          I don't think I could donate my own eggs. But as an incubator for someone else's baby, yes.

          • I will also (0 / 0)

            jump on this line of thought and I say my thoughts exactly! :) The only person I'd donate eggs for would be my sister-in-law, DH's younger sister. She's a great person and I'd be willing to for her.

      • I've actually thought about it (0 / 0)

        and yeah, for family, I would. Not that I have any reason to believe my sister can't have children, but I would definitely be a surrogate for her if she needed it.

    • fellow freak checking in! (0 / 0)

      I LOVED being pregnant. Can't wait to do it again. Problem is, my body has a hard time GETTING pregnant. Sigh.

      I would totally consider surrogacy for a close friend or loved one, but like you I am not done having kids of my own, and by the time I finish I might be too "mature" for surrogacy. Couple that with my unexplained infertility, and surrogacy is pretty much out the window.

      And what you said here:

      If they didn't cost so much after they came out, I'd be preggers all the time! :)

      Very true for me, too...

    • Not a weirdo... (0 / 0)

      I love being prenant most days. I've had two somewhat easy pregnancies. Other than the heartburn and getting kicked in the ribs I really can't complain.

      I too would do this for a close friend or family member. It would be the best gift you could ever give to someone.

      • heartburn (0 / 0)

        I got that once and was a drama queen like i was dying. I HATE it. My DH, who has gastro-whatever issues, laughed his ass off at my melodrama.

        • You got it (0 / 0)

          ONCE!  It was the bane of my existence during every pregnancy.  In fact, when I was on the delivery table giving birth to twins, I didn't want drugs for labor pain, I was asking for rolaids or tums.  Labor pain...not so bad.  Heart burn?  Ugh.

          • Tums and Pepcid (0 / 0)

            are what my OB recommended to me. So I'd take pepcid at night otherwise I'd wake up at 2AM with raging heartburn. And tums during the day if I was plagued with an attack. I did notice that sometimes I would start to feel like heartburn was coming on and as long as I ate something (a banana, yogurt, crackers, anything...) it would usually pass. Not always, but it often helped.

            • Crackers. Lots and lots (0 / 0)

              of crackers.  And certainly, not getting too empty.

              Back 24 years ago, my doctor recommended an antacid called "Gavascon".  Can't remember why he thought it preferable...there was a reason, though.  Ofcourse, that was in the days before products like Pepcid were sold over the counter.  Did work...seemed like it offered relief for a longer period than Tums or Rolaids.

    • I'm the opposite. (0 / 0)

      I would donate eggs if it would help (and didn't involve so many needles!!!). But I couldn't be the surrogate. I don't like being pregnant. And I couldn't carry a child for nine months and then hand it over. I think I'd really grieve.

    • Not in a trillion years, obviously. (0 / 0)

      I always thought I would surrogate for my brothers if necessary, even some of my close friends.  But that was before the first pregnancy.  Now, never.  Just couldn't do it.  Oy.

  • There are certain rights you can't give up. (0 / 0)

    Ask anyone in favour of voluntary euthenasia whether them giving up their right to not be murdered (in the eyes of the law) means a doctor administering a fatal drug will not be prosecuted. It's the same deal with those contracts saying you're going to go to arbitration. They're asking you to give up rights that you can't give up. The contract's meaningless, it's just there to scare you. If the Gyno does something illegal or incompetent, you can still sue, and the court will laugh that bit of paper straight out the door.
    I don't think I've been to a doctor in the US where I didn't have to sign something similar. I'm guessing they do it because a lot of people think it's legit. But I don't worry about it - I can still sue if something goes wrong, and because it's so universal it's not like you can find someone who doesn't ask you to sign such a piece of paper.

    "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

    by Expat Briton on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 08:32:13 AM PDT

    • More on health insurance. (0 / 0)

      I'm still angry and sad at this post I read on Real Live Preacher. While I don't think these stupid documents people have to sign are necessarily an argument for universal health insurance, RLP's post is. Don't read it if you're not prepared for just an infuriating, outrageous, sad and offensive story of health insurance. Or lack thereof.
      And if anyone has any experience mail ordering prescription drugs, he could use your advice.

      "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

      by Expat Briton on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 09:46:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • good point (0 / 0)

      I hadn't thought of it from that perspective - it's just a meaningless piece of paper.

  • i was asked by my gyno too... (0 / 0)

    in fact every single one of my docs in my previous plan asked me to sign this waiver.  i couldn't find a doc who didn't.  interestingly each of these docs ultimately either retired or went to kaiser.  the gyno told me his insurance company required it.

    now a member of kaiser.

  • Wow...never been asked (0 / 0)

    to "sign" or "promise" anything by a doctor or other medical professional.   Funny thing, back when I was having my babies, I would have gladly signed statements acknowledging that I had chose to forgo certain "routine" procedures and would therefore not hold the medical professional responsible.  No one asked, and I still got what I wanted.  

    Another thing I've heard a lot about lately that I never heard before is doctors "firing" their patients...miss an appointment or two?  You're fired.  Chose to not opt for a particular treatment or medication?  You're fired.  Ask for more extensive care or testing?  You're fired.  Now, I have no problem with a doctor honestly telling a patient that he/she has done all that is possible and that it would be in the best interest of seeking further help elsewhere, but geez..I've also heard of a lot of doctors who are just out and out refusing to take "complicated" cases on...particularly primary care givers.  This is not good because of the way most insurance plans are structured...you're required to have a primary care giver!

  • That infurates me (0 / 0)

    especially since i do not believe that malpractice suits are anywhere near the problem they have been made out to be.  But I do believe that most doctors are honestly afraid of them.  No way to tell, since accurate records aren't kept, and insurance companies don't have to open their books and prove that doctors' huge insurance rates have any correlation with the expense of malpractice suits.  Just as I wish Clinton and Obama supporters could remember that republicans are the real enemy, I wish doctors and patients could remember that about insurance companies.

    On a selfish note...we have ants.  Harmless ants.  Tiny and clean, not carpenter ants that could eat the house up.  And I hate them.  I personally hate each one.  Also, I love our exterminator, who comes quarterly at a price we can afford.  

    But why do I hate these ants?  They aren't hurting us.  They're in my house, sure, but they're ants, not lawyers.  I don't even really feel good about the private ownership of the land.  Perhaps our house was built on their hill (although it has been here 100 years...) Is it healthy of me to hate insects?

    • Bugs - eeew (0 / 0)

      Just yesterday I found little piles of ants all over our house.  Those teeny tiny little ants.  Shudder - hate them.

      My kids think I'm a wimp and get mad at me when I kill insects and spiders in the house, but I just can't deal.  I have no problem with them when they're outside - I just don't want them in my house!  I guess we're both going to be targets for PETI (People for the Ethical Treatment of Insects?)

    • We have cockroaches (0 / 0)

      everywhere.  I'd much rather have ants.
      I can't wait to move.

    • last year (0 / 0)

      right after we moved into our new place, we got ants. They got into our dishwasher, and then into our PANTRY. They swarmed all over everything and we had to throw out a lot of food.

      I can handle them outside...but not in my food.

    • Hee (0 / 0)

      But why do I hate these ants?  They aren't hurting us.  They're in my house, sure, but they're ants, not lawyers.  I don't even really feel good about the private ownership of the land.  Perhaps our house was built on their hill (although it has been here 100 years...) Is it healthy of me to hate insects?

      I love you, Erin.

      I have a funny line on ants myself. I don't mind them where there are just a few. But a steady stream and I finally have to have an ant massacre.

      A line of dish detergent often seems to stop them.

      We have miniature ants this week - like 1/3 the size of a normal ant. They're kind of cute... in small quantities.

    • ditto (0 / 0)

      I cannot stand those damn things. Once my brother fell asleep outside by a tree and was covered in them- we had to drown them in the shower it was so damn traumatizing. They are horrible little things that have no respect for anything.

      My in laws have these horrible bugs that came in the house when a city chopped down a huge tree. They come every season, they fly into your hair, they cover the front of her house... 8 years it's been that I've been going over there regularly and I HAAAAAAAAAAAATE those things. I squish them in a tissue and feel joy.

    • I don't hate little ants (0 / 0)

      but fire ants make me crazy with rage.  There's nothing quite so satisfying as pouring boiling water on their mounds.  Not really an option in your kitchen though...

      I childproofed my house but they got back in somehow.

      by lonestar canuck on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 07:56:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • why not? (0 / 0)

      i do not believe that malpractice suits are anywhere near the problem they have been made out to be

      --R

      • Because (0 / 0)

        there is no accurate evidence available.  So I'll hear from doctors or friends in the medical field "well, I must know, I'm a doctor."  But they don't know that it's a problem--all they know is that it's something they're afraid of.  They don't have any more access to the facts than anyone.  They'll tell you about huge and ridiculous sounding settlements, but first of all there's often more to those than meets the eye, and secondly they tell you nothing about the bigger picture.

        I only have anecdotal evidence to argue my point, but since that's all there is, I'll say that I don't know any doctors who have been sued.  I don't know any doctors who know any doctors who have been sued.  I know many people who have suffered due to major incompetence or just willful negligence, but I don't know anyone who has even attempted to sue over it.  So to believe it, I need to see, from insurance companies, a comparison of how much profit they're making vs. how much they are paying out in lawsuits.  It they were doing anything by saying enormous settlements were a problem just to create a climate of fear and submission, they would be glad to release this information.

        • You are correct. (0 / 0)

          Don't have it at hand, but the one study I've seen found that the cost of malpractice premiums that insurance companies charge had quadrupled over the time period studied, while the amounts being paid out had declined slightly.

  • My friends have three boys, all surrogate (0 / 0)

    They're a gay couple who wanted children so they used an egg donor and a surrogate to add a single boy, then twin boys, to their family.  The same surrogate carried both pregnancies for them.  They keep in touch.

    This woman has several boys of her own and really wanted to have a girl pregnancy but alas, it was not to be. :)  The twins were her final pregnancy.  Theirs is one of those feel-good success stories.

  • Off to Nana's House He Goes (0 / 0)

    DS is off to Nana's house tonight. DS and I need to spend time tomorrow am rearranging a few things in the apartment to make room for BabyPear seeing that our tentative move won't be until May. (we're scheduled to close on our townhouse on 4/15 - fingers crossed!) I also want to wash the newborn clothes that I pulled out of storage and rearrange DS's closet to make room for baby stuff.

    We moved DS's carseat and installed that baby seat base the other day. The first time DS got in the car he looked a little confused, pointed to the middle where his seat was, and said,"Jack's seat here!" I explained, no that his seat had to move over because it was the Big Boy seat and the little car seat was for Baby. He mulled it over for a second and said with a smile, "baby's seat" while pointing to the infant base. And, today he introduced himself to his buddy Nathan's new baby sister. He leaned over her carrier and said, "I'm Jack! This mommy! (pointing to me)" and then said "Hi Baby Leila". It was sooo cute. My heart melted. So I think he gets it. We'll see...

  • A modest proposal on surrogacy (0 / 0)

    Did anyone notice how little surrogate mothers get paid?  According to the New York Times Magazine article, about $20,000—for working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  That’s way less than minimum wage.  Considering the major wear and tear on your body a pregnancy and delivery entail—and leaving aside emotional tolls and other sentimental nonsense—that is a raw deal.  I have a modest proposal: let’s open up the market in women’s bodies for surrogacy.  But women should be paid a fair rate for their 9-months-long, 24-7 labor.  Seems to me star athletes’ pay makes a pretty fair guideline, as both are highly physical endeavors that require utter commitment of mind and body, quickly take a lot out of you, and leave you unable to practice the trade for more than a few years.  So let’s set a floor of $1 million per pregnancy.

    How crass, many will protest. Most of you who said you’d be surrogates seemed to be saying you’d do it for something other than the money.  Fine.  That’s a different matter. Let people make heroic gifts.  But then crass contract law should have no part in the matter.  A gift is something freely given, and one can change one’s mind about making the gift at any moment--no court should then turn around and treat such a surrogacy arrangement as binding.  Can't have it both ways.  Anything different is rank dishonesty, using the traditional glorification of self-sacrifice in women to reinforce the power imbalance created by economic inequality—all in order to enforce contracts for the buying and selling of women’s bodies.

    Carolyn McC rockthecradleblog.com

    by CarolynMcC on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:37:40 PM PDT

    • Hmm (0 / 0)

      Isn't it a free market?  If someone chooses to do it for $20 grand I don't really have a problem with that.

      It is true you are pregnant 24/7 but I'm not sure I'd call it "working" 24/7.  Some of that time you are asleep, for example.  (Albeit uncomfortably and being woken up all the time to pee.)

      It seems like you have a problem with surrogacy ("contracts for the buying and selling of women's bodies").  If it's fundamentally wrong, why do you suggest setting a higher price for it rather than banning it altogether?

      • if not work, then risk compensation (0 / 0)

        remember, being pregnant does carry risk to it; if the remuneration isn't for "work" (and I do think it is 24/7 work in the sense that it's a strain on the body), it is also a premium for the risk involved.

      • Is it a free market (0 / 0)

        when we have minimum wage?  

        I personally consider it to be working, even if the surrogate is sleeping.  I slept very badly while pregnant, but moreover, It seems to be like the difference between caring for one's own children vs. someone else's.  When my kids are asleep, I feel like I'm off the clock.  If I'm babysitting and the kids are asleep, or babysitting overnight and I am asleep, I'm still working, because I can't leave and have to get up if the kids need me.

    • I agree (0 / 0)

      If it's such a great thing to do, why shouldn't the person do it be paid well for it, rather than considerably less than minimum wage.  Even on salary, $20-30k per year, especially with all that overtime, is not good money.

  • I survived! (0 / 0)

    Yes, I survived my night shifts!  Oddly, I had a harder time adjusting to coming OFF nights than going ON.  My team leader was very excellent about allowing me to nap when necessary and things weren't busy.  I actually had a pretty good time--I had never worked with any of the team before, and we turned out to be a pretty good group.  Lots of laughing, no tensions even at 2am, and lots of brainpower.  I will gladly volunteer for night shifts again next year.  Day shift was FRACKED UP, from what I observed.  (Fracked up--Battlestar Galactica starts its new season in 7 minutes, yay!)

    I had a doctor's appointment yesterday--I'm down another pound.  Boo.  Excellent news is that I'm pretty much off the Zofran, which means the nausea is going away.  YIPPEE, as DD would say.  So not excellent news--past three nights I have woken up with horrendous heartburn.  I'm only 16 weeks dammit, that didn't start until 22 weeks last time.  I can literally feel the lining of my esophagus being burned away, ick.  From one Z drug to another, my new best friend is Zantac.

    I had many other things to talk about, but they have fled my mind in the face of Battlestar Galactica.  I had no idea it was starting tonight!

    • so glad to hear it! (0 / 0)

      also really glad to hear that your nausea is ending. Not so good on the heartburn, of course! Do you like peppermint tea? I found that helped me.

      Re: Battlestar Galactica - one of the things I most regret about not living in the US is that I've completely missed BG. I'm totally looking into buying the DVDs because I loved the original series and hae enjoyed the plot summaries and reviews I've read so far. Especially love that they made Starbuck a woman this time around!

    • See my comment above about heartburn (0 / 0)

      its been the bain of my existance during this pregnancy.

  • Indian surrogacy (0 / 0)

    There was an article in the NYT recently about Indian women carrying babies for foreigners.  It sounds like it's getting more common since they cost is much less.  I can see both sides of that situation.  In some ways, it seems so exploitative, and in others, it's offering poor women an relatatively easy job for good money.  

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