Mother Talkers

Are Progressive Dads Hypocrites About the Whole Gay Thing?

Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:50:17 PM PDT

Details magazine recently ran a blog post by David Hochman about how straight men are uncomfortable with the thought of having a gay son. "The fact is, parents—dads especially, even those who cry at weddings and like to make soufflés—take pride when their kids follow culturally ingrained gender roles." Progressive dads are not immune from this; in fact, the article contends, they may be more susceptible:

It may sound like liberal-dad hypocrisy, but guys like Ron say it's their hyperawareness of gay culture that makes them so fear the idea of their kids being homosexual in the first place. "You see the news; you see movies like Brokeback Mountain and Boys Don't Cry," Ron says. "You think, It would be a hell of a lot easier if my kid turned out not to be gay."

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We'll ignore, for the moment, the fact that Boys Don't Cry was about a transgender person, not a gay person. PFLAG (Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) is up in arms about the article, saying:

PFLAG fathers from across the country will begin speaking out online about their gay, bisexual and transgender children in response to an article . . . insinuating that men are uncomfortable with the thought of having a gay son. . . . PFLAG fathers will speak out, at the organization’s national blog site all week, to challenge Hochman’s article and shed light on their own journey toward embracing their gay, bisexual and transgender sons.

The first such post went up today.

I love PFLAG, and think they do tremendous work for the LGBT community, especially the young people in it.  I think it is important, too, to share examples of dads who have embraced their GBT sons, in order to help counter the prejudice that Hochman highlights. Still, something's been bothering me about their approach to all this.

PFLAG seems to be saying that Hochman was wrong in showing that some men are uncomfortable with GBT sons. He does more than "insinuate" that they feel this way, however; he states it outright.

You know what? He's right. Some are, and if we pretend otherwise, we'll never change that. Yes, Hochman was perhaps a bit sweeping in his statements. He talks with three dads who have difficulty with the idea of a gay son, and doesn't balance them with dads who are okay with it. He states "If you're a father, chances are you've had a similarly conflicted inner dialogue," which implies that a majority of dads feel this way. The fact is, we don't really have data one way or the other.

Somewhere between Hochman and PFLAG is truth, and I see no better forum for discussion of the matter than right here on Mother Talkers. I know there have been threads before about boys who wear dresses. How would you feel if your son turned out to be gay? Would it be different if your daughter was a lesbian? What if either of them was transgender? Would your spouse (especially male spouses) feel the same? If you are uncomfortable with it, can you pinpoint why? Is it fear of bias and harm from others, general discomfort with a feminine son (or masculine daughter), or other reasons? Would you feel any differently if your child still "passed" as straight (i.e., is it their sexual orientation per se or their gender expression that is causing the discomfort)?

I'll add that these feelings of discomfort are not unique to straight parents. Many LGBT parents I know have similar worries about their children being LGBT, for fear of adding to the false stereotype that LGBT parents beget LGBT offspring. Statistically, of course, some will. LGBT or not, we need to get over our fears and let our children become who they really are (though we can always hope they develop better taste in music).

Tags: lgbt, glbt, gay, lesbian, dads (all tags)

Permalink | 28 comments

  • very interesting post, Dana (0 / 0)

    I agree with you that the only way to deal with these issues is to raise them and talk about them. A thorough airing and friendly debate can surely

    I have thought what if?, and I have to say I do fear the bias, discrimination and non-acceptance from others. I don't care the sexual orientation of my kid'(s')partner(s) so long as the relationships are healthy and loving.

    Does that make me homophobic? I'd like to say no, but what do members of the LGBT think when I say that?

    • 1 vote for 'no' :) (0 / 0)

      Hi Rachel, I'm glad you asked "members" of the LGBT community because as you can see from the PFLAG issue (and many others, starting with what to call ourselves) the "community" doesn't have a single voice...

      Anyway, speaking for myself as a 50ish lesbian, definitely NO, I would not consider you homophobic, but instead "aware of issues that LGBT people face in our culture" and wanting your kids to be safe and happy. Will address this more in an answer to Annora, below, but thank you so much for BEING aware.

      Off topic: your commitment to physical fitness inspires me! G'day / Maddie

    • I ditto madowoman (0 / 0)

      speaking as an out 40ish lesbian ...;-)

      I do not think that makes you homophobic. I think it makes you a caring concerned mother -- that's what we all want for our kids - tat they have healthy and loving relationships that are accepted by everyone.  

    • I can relate to this in (0 / 0)

      a similar way...a different circumstance, but some of the same fears.

      My son's child will be bi-racial.  Yeah, this is largely accepted, and I love my son's girlfriend.  However, there are still plenty of bigots out there and I know that my future grandchild will have to face things in life that neither myself or my son have ever faced.  I don't think this means I'm racist...I think it means I'm realistic.  We want our children to be prepared to face the challenges ahead of them.

    • My DH and I, (0 / 0)

      We've discussed this in great depth.  My sis suspects her step-son is gay and has been working on her DH to be more accepting.  Her DH is fine with homosexuals, but NOT if they are his children.

      We both feel that we would accept our children for who they are.  What we would both find difficult is society not accepting our children based on their sexual orientation.  My parents and step parents would be fine with our kids if they were homosexual, but DH's family would have a VERY hard time.  (Maybe that explains why we are so much closer with my family.) We also fear the bias, discrimination, and non-acceptance from others.

      Honestly, if I thought that either of my children were homosexual, I would consider moving to an area that was more accepting of homosexuals. (We live outside Cleveland, Ohio)  I'm pretty sure that my DD is not a homosexual (she's 11), but I can't know about DS yet, he's only 15 months.  

  • Do we not have data? (0 / 0)

    It seems like the sort of thing someone must have studied.

    I guess I would be uneasy if my son were significantly nonconforming in his gender expression, because I would worry about bullying and violence.  These things probably are greater risks, and they also feel more personal than the risk that he'll be injured in a car accident.

    DH would probably not be compassionately supportive, but that's mostly just his personality, and his background.  His father used to bitch at him for dancing.  He's overly concious of doing "foolish" and "unmanly" things, and also of the disapproval society often gives boys who don't conform.

    • The vulnerability isn't sexual expression (0 / 0)

      but rather perceived gender-role conformity, and to a great extent the ability to "pass" as nonthreatening with members of powerful groups.

      I think, though, in general, it would be not as big a deal as for some.  Our UU church is an actively welcoming place, with several GLBT families.  DS will get to visit my ex-gf and her wife and hopefully soon-to-exist kids.

  • Having adult aged kids, (0 / 0)

    this is something they've asked me about.  More than once, I've been asked "what would you do if I was gay?"  Always sounds rather odd, because really, what COULD I do?  I'd love and accept my kids no matter what.

    However, I'm not going to be too judgmental about parents who initially have a difficult time.  You raise a child having certain ideas about that child's identity and who and what you think they are.  To have to rethink all of that isn't easy.  Maybe you feel as if there was a part of your child's development that you somehow missed, or that there was something that was kept from you.  Ofcourse, I think many parents just somehow know when they're raising a LGBT child.  

  • There's a difference, I think (0 / 0)

    between being uncomfortable with who an LGBT child is, in and of themselves, and worrying about the potential for increased pain and sorrow in your child's life. If Timothy turned out to be gay, I wouldn't care for him any less, or think he wasn't living up to our standards, or be unhappy with the person he would become. With society the way it is right now, however, I would most assuredly fear bias and harm from others, especially during his high school years. In that respect, I think I might mourn a little- not because of his orientation, but because it would mean a harder life, in some ways, and what parent would voluntarily pick extra suffering for their child?

    Does that make me anti-gay?  I certainly don't think so.  In fact, I think it makes me a more effective crusader for equal rights than I ever was before, because my outrage at the way LGBT people get treated is much more... primal, I guess, when I consider that it might be my beloved child. And feeling that makes me realize that we're all somebody's beloved child, and it's time to fix things, now, before anyone else's babies get hurt.

    • Yes (0 / 0)

      Hi Annora, from a lesbian stepmom. (To clarify: I'm lesbian - DSD at 14 is showing many signs of heterosexuality.) Thank you for understanding the difference and expressing it so well.

      Thanks to Dana for the awesome discussion that already hit most of what I would want to say. Especially good question about is it the orientation or the expression that bothers people?

      On an up note: due to the efforts of many many people, high school is SO much more survivable (for teens with same-sex orientations) than it was in my day. (I worry that it's growing more toxic for ALL teens in terms of consumerism etc. but that's another posting.) When I think of issues for young LGBT people, I think more of : smaller pools of potential partners, more challenges having kids etc. Aussieyank just did a great posting on this (* waves *)...

      Gah, I'm on a major work deadline, hope to post more after work.

  • I often hope (0 / 0)

    DD is a lesbian so I won't have to worry about unintended teen pregnancy. Is that bad? I identify as bisexual (although I loved lonespark's "omnisexual" term as well) so I'm not at all worried about my kids and who they will love. Not an issue for me at all. Or, DH for that matter.

    • Hee! (0 / 0)

      I've had the same thought. :-)

      Seriously, when she ends up choosing a relationship partner, gender is way way down my list in things I worry about.

      • My Mom would have turned (0 / 0)

        cartwheels if I had "come out" to her in HS. She was pretty sure I was straight but I did have a lot of intense friendships with girls, so she was holding out a little candle of hope. Seriously. She had a whole list of reasons, less AIDS, no unintended pg, women are nicer etc. She is very ideaslitc about Lesbianism.

        I think my Mexican Catholic Dad would have been pretty cool with it too, since it meant no "guy" would ever mess around with his little girl. Now had my Dad had a gay son??? I am not sure that would have been cool. He would ahve gotten over it...eventually.

  • My DH (0 / 0)

    and I have talked about it a lot.  I have a gay brother and the "what ifs" has come up in conversation quite a bit over the years.  I know he'd be fine with it and love our kids no matter what (as would I).  He actually wept during the movie The Family Stone when he saw how genuinely accepting the parents were of their gay child and his partner.  

    It's something you have no control over... like many things in regards to who your child is as a person.  

    "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

    by 1plain1peanut on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:46:02 PM PDT

  • My Mom (0 / 0)

    My Mom was pretty religious (a Lutheran) and while I wouldn't call her intolerant she was pretty straight-laced and traditional.  I was really surprised then, when my sister's friend in high school came out to his parents and they kicked him out of the house, and my Mom offered to let him stay with our family.  She said she just didn't think it was right to put your kids out on the street no matter what.  I really love everything Annora said, it all resonated with me.  This is something that we as a society need to fix so that nobody has to worry about their kids out there.

    For me, well, I'll go out on a limb...  I would have an easier time in my own head with a gay son than a lesbian daughter.  I don't really know why that is, maybe more of a gender expression thing and worrying about relating to her experience.  I hope that I would recognize that as my problem, not her problem, and quickly get over myself.  I do think there's a bigger category that this falls into.  What all of us parents are likely to face is that our expectations of who our kids are going to be will not be who they are.  They need us to love who they are and let go of who we expected or wished them to be (whether it's someone outgoing, musical, athletic, straight, or anything else).

  • We'd both be fine with it (0 / 0)

    I haven't made any assumptions about the sexual orientation of my boys.  I would never even think of saying anything about future girlfriends or future wives.  Just like when I meet someone for the first time, I don't assume their orientation.  My husband feels the same, and I don't think it would be an issue at all for either of us.

    It's been an ongoing discussion for us since our older son (age 3.5) is not a typical boy.  He wore pink for the past year (though recently stopped) and prefers playing with girls.  So we'll be watching his gender development carefully, but I'm already seeing him making efforts to conform with more boy-oriented things, which I have mixed feelings about.  My main goal is to provide an environment where he's comfortable being himself and communicating with us.

  • I used to worry.... (0 / 0)

    In Australia, there's a big macho culture. If you're a boy (or a girl for that matter)and don't like sports and drinking, you're lost (I know...there's no reason that a gay man won't like sports and drinking...stay with me here). My husband and I are both the gentle intellectual type. We don't watch sports. I played soccer in high school and ran track...but let's face it...that was really to get into college. He played with computers and did geeky things with his mates. (note that although DH is Australian, he spent his high school and college years in the US...so his experience is not typical) So I've always worried a bit about our kids. We kick balls with them, and enroll them in various sports in an effort to overcome their genetics. I'm not sure how effective that's going to be! Especially when their grandfather's idea of playing with them is letting them mess with his oscilloscope...or help him build a robot. :)

    DH's male cousin recently came out (last weekend). Everyone reacted very nonchalantly. No one has told the crazy catholic grandmother that thinks vegetarians are deeply suspicious. I don't think anyone needs to unless they get married. Then I'm going to delight in telling her. :) I was actually relieved. This is a boy (he's 23 now) who wore dresses to school until he was 9, danced ballet until he was 15, and is now a magazine model. He's always danced to his own beat. But he is well adjusted, popular and happy. He has lots of mates (who have all reacted as if they already knew), and seems to have had a pretty good high school career. I feel better knowing that it's possible.

    So to answer the question in a round-a-bout way...I don't care. I want them to be happy. And I don't see being gay as the stigma that it once was. Being a non-sport intellectual is about the same here, I think. The only thing that would make me sad is if they never had children. But with various methods of getting pregnant (and surrogates) these days, plus the option of adopting, that doesn't have to be an issue. And there's always the chance that your heterosexual children will decide to remain childless.

  • Thanks for this post (0 / 0)

    Great topic to ponder. I think I fall where some others do -- I love my children, whoever they are. But, I would be worried about extended family rejecting them if they are gay. I would not be too worried about society in general as we live in a pretty great city, go to a church that is welcoming and affirming -- but the family, that's another story.

    I do know that I have known men who got seriously weirded out when their sons dressed in women's clothes, hats, heels....even though that is a normal thing for every boy to do -- so I would not be surprised if it were true that even progressive men who are seemingly not prejudiced against LGBT persons would feel differently if it were their son who is gay.

  • I think my DH would be more bothered (0 / 0)

    if DS was fat than if he was gay.  

    Though I do think DH would have a harder time dealing with gayness than I would -- I don't think I'd have a problem at all -- I think he'd get over it pretty fast.

  • a kind, safe partner (0 / 0)

    When DH and I think of DD's future life (she's not even 2 yet), we truly don't care the sex or gender of her partner.  We want to teach her to respect herself, be assertive, communicate openly, and how to tell the difference between a healthy relationship and a toxic one.  We want her to by happy in life and to love boldly.  She has great role models who are gay men, straight, and lesbians.  So I guess we just hope that when the time comes for her to ponder her own sexuality that she will have a trusted adult to talk to besides just us, so we are pretty intentional about having a diverse set of friends in our lives.  

    DH has even said that he secretly hopes she might turn out to be a lesbian because he's more worried about her dating men than he would be about her dating women.    

  • You know it is funny (0 / 0)

    DH would have not a single issue.  When his little bro came out, his only worry was that the kid was going to college in a really conservative area, and he was worried about little bro's safety.

    I think, for me, the hardest part is the feminine gender expression. I'm having to learn to embrace my daughter's inherent "girliness" and I sort of view my son as the one I won't have to buy tu-tus for.  I want him to play sports (but only because they interest me...I know this.  I just want to share those with him).

    However, I think that if he were gay or bisexual or transgender, I'd have an easier time.  (Yes, I know there are masculine gay men.  Yes, that would be even easier).  I've dealt with gay/bi/trans friends before, so it is less of an unknown.

  • I hate to admit (0 / 0)

    it would be difficult for me.  I know my first instinct would be to support them but I also know I would feel a little sad.  I can't seem to articulate why I would feel sad.  Part of the feeling is just knowing how many difficulties she would face, from the world in general and from her extended family.  But I'm afraid it's not so noble as that, maybe there's something in me that would mourn the loss of the life I pictured for her.  That seems strange to me because I don't have any ideas about what kind of career she'll have or if she'll be a cheerleader or valedictorian or star athlete.  I'm even careful to say (even though they are only 3 and 4!) "if you decide to have children one day" because I don't want them to think that that is what they are supposed to do.  I don't know if they might choose to live single or in a non-married relationship and none of that bothers me.  I wish I could identify what it is about their orientation that would be so different for me.  Sometimes I wonder if it's not residue from my ultra-conservative, evangelical upbringing

  • Can't dictate how someone feels. (0 / 0)

    That's really the end of it. We can have the best principles in the world, act like a saint, but how we feel in our gut isn't something we can consciously change. How does that make someone a hypocrite? Because they may feel a way that intellectually, they know is wrong? The real judge of if someone is a hypocrite is whether they fail to act in the way they say they ought to, but that's not the challenge here, we're criticizing people for their involuntary emotional reaction, and honestly I think that's wrong, because there's no real discrimination here.

    "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

    by Expat Briton on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:42:29 AM PDT

  • I worry (0 / 0)

    that it's a tad homophobic that I hope for a gay son.  I'll be fine if he's straight, but I'll be happy if he's gay.  

    My husband thinks that's weird.  He'll be fine if our son is gay, but he doesn't actively hope for it.

    Like others, though, I don't see a problem with a dad who struggles before he becomes accepting.  One might even say that it's commendable to be humble enough to take a look at yourself and make a change.  What I hate about homophobes is...they're straight, what gay people do is none of their business, and above all, they're the least likely to know any out gay people.  So what do they know?  It's a lot easier to be judgmental and hateful about something you know nothing about.  Monsters live in the dark, I guess.  When you see that  gay people are "normal" and, like most people, "boring", it's hard to look at who they love as subversive at all.

  • And you know (0 / 0)

    Not as well known as Brokeback Mountain, but in my opinion still great, is the film The Sum of Us.  Starring a young Russell Crow and his character's very supportive dad.  

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