Mother Talkers

Help! Whiny 5 year old!

Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:32:31 AM PDT

I may have the world's sweetest 5 year old child. Maybe most of you will laugh at my pleas and compare Darling Girl with your children at 5 and make me feel inadequate to the challenges of child-rearing. But seriously, I am a lonely voice in the wilderness at this point and I have to get some perspective on my sweetie's sudden turn from Dr. Jekyll to Miss Hyde!

My daughter and I have always been close. Once when she was playing dolls a friend observed her as she lovingly tucked each of her plastic playmates into bed. Darling Girl turned and said, "I'm playing Mommy and Sweeties!"

Recently however I have been getting glares, and stomped feet, flat refusals to perform tasks, crying, whining, fussing, and obstreperous behavior of all types. She went through a (recently ended?) 3 month bout of bed wetting, despite having been "night-trained" for two years! This morning after repeated requests for her to get dressed, I walked into the den and she was still in pjs. I told her calmly that unless she got dressed right this minute I was turning off "Super Why" and dressing her myself. She whined, "Noooo!" and then just stood there looking at the tv. I leaned in to turn it off and she made this wild mad sound and said, "You're MEAN!" and just glared at me. Lowered eyebrows, clenched jaw, red face, everything.

You could have knocked me over with a feather!

But all of that I could handle if it weren't for her sudden panic attacks. At least I would call them panic attacks. Yesterday she started crying, sobbing, hysterical out of the blue. She was strapped in a car seat, crusing with me to pick up Daddy. I asked why she was crying, she said, "I am afraid that some bad guy is going to break into our house and hurt my fish!" I reassured her that the house was locked up and no bad guys were going to hurt her fish, and also that the police watch our neighborhood and make sure there are no bad guys around. "Well, what if they get hooks in them, right through their heads? Would that hurt them?" I said, "Yeah, but no-one is going to hook your fish!" <TEARS> "I don't want my fish to get hooked!" "No-one is going to hook your fish!"

Then back to bad guys.... then onto, "I'm afraid I'm going to get shot with a gun!"

I nearly drove off the road.

Unfortunately our house was burgled twice 18 months ago, once when Darling Girl and I came home two hours ealrier than usual. Police speculate that the guy was STILL in the the house when she and I got there. 3 weeks later, Daddy got home early and it happened again. We got an alarm system, new locks, some automatic lighting etc. and took care of the issue. So all this to say I can't tell her that nobody can get in our house, she knows that isn't true. There have also been a series of burglaries in this new neighborhood, but fortuntely we haven't been hit. The gun thing though REALLY gets me, I only let her watch non-commercial children's programming, we read age appropriate books, I make Daddy watch what he says about work at the dinner table (he's a prosecutor)... in short I am trying to keep her sheltered from some of the worst aspects of human behavior.

I tried to get her to calm down about all of these fears and worries and then she said the most horrible thing, "I can't stop thinking about it!" Which is what I used to day when I was having anxiety attacks! In my 20's!

This fears and worries thing is intermittent as is the mad/mean mommy behavior but it is worrying me to no end. We recently (6 months ago) moved from the only home she had ever known to live 5 and 6 hours away from her beloved grandparents, her old school, the old neighborhood etc. Now we are pregnant with child number two. She has been through a lot. Is it trauma? Is it a phase? Does she need a child psychologist? What do I do, preferably in the next two months before Baby #2 gets here? HELP!

Tags: child behavior, ages and stages, panic attacks, child rearing (all tags)

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  • OH dear I feel for you (0 / 0)

    I would say that yes it is alot of change and that's probably at the root of this.  Pluse honestly I"D be traumatized by two break ins so I can only imagine how a 5 year old would act.  I wonder if a visit to your local Officer Friendly to have him or her reassure her that the police are there to keep us safe adn catch the bad guys might help her a bit? a counselor might not be a bad idea either for a little bit. sometimes its easier to tell other people what scares you rather than mom or dad.  

    Now. here comes the part you won't want to hear. If I had a dollare for every "you're mean" and "i hate you" and "you're a stupid mommy" and (my personal favorite) "you are REALLY BAD AT BEING A MOTHER" that my soon to be 9 year old has lobbed at me I'd be rich.  I usually come back with something along the lines of "yes I know, they make you pass a mean mommy test before they let you have a baby" or " well then you'll have lots to talk to your therapist about when you're 20" .  I hit my high point though when I told her that God only gives us so much pissy attitude to last a lifetime and if she used all hers up before she was 9 she was going to have a really miseralbe time in her teenage years.  

    So I'd try to not focus on the 'you're means' and instead focus on what's at the root of this which to my totally untrained and unprofessional opinion sounds like a little girl who's had some serious scares and some big changes in her life.... hang in there and keep us posted.  

    • Thanks (0 / 0)

      I made the mistake of reading baby books I think. They all talk about how cooperative 5 year olds are. So here I am thinking she's abnormal!

      The burglary thing, ach, it didn't seem to phase her last year or during this intervening time. Maybe hearing grown-ups talking about it recently has triggered some sort of flash-back thingy?

      I don't talk to her about it, was never my intention to mention it, but a couple of neighbors have approached me since it happened, including her teacher. (She's also a neighbor.)

      I might ask to stop by the police station for a little "Office Friendly" time, that's a good idea. I do know for a fact they have extra officers on the neighborhood now due to the "activity".

      • I've learned never to underestimate what kids (0 / 0)

        pick up that you don't think they do.  I think rather than NOT talk about it what probably needs to happen is for your daughter TO talk about it with someone. Her actions are signalling that she needs to talk about it I think.

        Now let me get on my soapbox about baby books.  burn them, trash them, use them to prop up a broken table leg but NEVER ever read them. I'm convinced they are written by perfect people with cardboard children.

        don't read studies either.  I always say that the only study i care about is the one child study of Liza. the rest is just static.

      • 5 year olds are only cooperative (0 / 0)

        compared to infants.

        A lot of change happens at 5 - school, all kinds of growth. 5 is about when they start to be their own independent people with their own lives. New baby, moving etc all add to that.

        "You're the meanest mommy I ever had" is the one I tend to get. Don't take it personally.

        It's always interesting what fears come to the top. I recall vividly a King Kong poster in my uncle's apartment when we stayed there for my 5-year-old summer. It terrified me. It was along the stairs and I always rushed past it as fast as I could. I mentioned it to my uncle a few years ago, and he was shocked and of course he would have taken it down had he known. Thinking back, I'm not sure I even realized that was an option. It felt like a spiritual incarnation, a monster portal, something beyond mere human control. :-)

        I was quite afraid of monsters and open windows during this time. My parents separated about then, but I don't recall being consciously aware of that, only the Bigfoot specials with their scary music.

        By the way, don't underestimate the fear factor of a documentary with dramatic, dark music. I'm glad that's not the style any more.

        • I was afraid of green people... (0 / 0)

          The Incredible Hulk, Swamp Thing and Yoda. I guess I am dating myself here by saying these were popular figures when I was 5, and I had teenage uncles who unwittingly exposed me to them. I would walk by the living room when the Hulk was on TV shielding my eyes. My Uncles still joke about this. I don't think they realized I had nightmares almost every night about them...people I loved would turn green and alien looking.

          So yeah, the King Kong thing, I get it.

          It felt like a spiritual incarnation, a monster portal, something beyond mere human control. :-)

          Yep. That is a very eloquent summation of how I felt then too.

          I just wonder what her triggers are? She is nowhere near as obvious with her fears as I was at age 5.

  • poor girl (0 / 0)

    This all sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to some very difficult experiences. I agree wholeheartedly that you should not take her behavior toward you personally.

    It's trauma, and it's a phase. We all go through tough times. When we do, we feel horrible, and we can't stop thinking about it. Which is okay. I think she needs to know that it's okay to feel terrible about these scary things--that she doesn't need to 'fix' her fears and anxieties. Her fears aren't irrational but based on experience. Each safe day that passes will be one more buildling block to feeling better, and soon she will feel safe again.

    I think a lot of one-on-one time with Mom and Dad and reassurance that her feelings are okay is a good starting point, and you are probably already doing that.

  • All pretty normal, IMHO (0 / 0)

    First, "I hate you" or "you're mean" are definitely par for the course as our kiddos gain independence and their self-identity.  If you can react calmly and not take it personally, it will probably pass.  For both of my kids, the message was "it's OK to be mad at me.  It's not OK to use mean words."    One way to make the  "I hate you"s increase is to react with a big sad display.

    Second, a move and a second baby sound like big changes.  We moved when DD was 5, and it hit her hard.  One day she broke down crying in a store because she saw a magnet with the name of her best friend from our old town.  We were literally sitting on the floor, with her sobbing, in CVS!  As for the second baby, we had a similar reaction from my DD when we just started talking about getting pregnant LOL.  All of a sudden she started crying and screaming at bedtime - it was a hard time.  In both cases, we acknowledged what she was sad/worried about, but tried not to feed into it.

    Finally, kids this age have great imaginations, but difficulty putting it in context.  It's not a surprise to hear her imaging bad guys - especially since there's been a real break-in.  Reassure her what you and her dad have done to keep her safe.  Fears are normal at this age, and in her case they're not unreasonable!

    HTH

    • Sudden tears (0 / 0)

      Yeah, I never know what is going to set her off. Even if we are out having a fun time somewhere with her friends, there can be these big stormy displays. And while she is verbally precocious, I don't always understand what is setting her off. I mean, I don't think she understands either, of course.

      It kills me that I don't know how to acknowledge her fears without making them worse. When I told her the police are watching our house, then she said, "What if they don't SEE the bad guys? What if they are sneaking around?" She always seems to have more fear and worry (or as she says "concern") than I have answers for!

      A fish that died over a year ago was also brought up in this last bout!!! I didn't even remember we had a black mollie until she told me about it.

  • Baby #2 (0 / 0)

    You've described my almost 3 year old quite well, and we're days away from adding baby #2.  We've found that the more people speak to her about babies, being a big sister, mommy's tummy, etc., the more behavior issues we see.  Lots of hugs and conversation about how we will always love her has helped, and a moratorium on baby talk has also helped.  

    Don't get me wrong, we're not blindsiding her with the baby, but she knows it's coming and that things will be different.  Information beyond that is a string of hypotheticals that she can't quite process.  For example, her daycare teacher had this long talk with her about how babies can't hold up their own heads.  DD has no clue what to do with that information.  She likes to talk so she'll talk about it, but she doesn't get it.  It sounds weird.  I can see how it would freak her out.  Since we've switched to "if asked" mode, coupled by lots of hugs, we've seen improvement.  

    Good luck to you, this is so hard and it sounds like your little one has a great family to help her through lots of changes!

    --R

  • i was a kindergarten teacher... (0 / 0)

    and i too thought five year olds were close to as reasonable as a person could get.  until i parented one (now coming up on #2 next week).  when, at age five,  my extremely easy-going, insanely sweet eldest son tested all the eye-rolling, foot stomping, lying, exasperation of a pint-sized teen, i started to question friends.  it seems as though MOST kids in this age range go through what i very unprofessionally call "creepy periods".  i never saw it as a teacher, but neither did the teachers of my friends' kids.. lets' say it was VERY obvious as a parent.

    i bet your daughter is doing the five year old thing (very normal) AND going through some serious transitions... new baby, moving and the burglaries. kids this age are very very good at coming to alarming conclusions, and hers even makes sense... if a bad guy came into your house and the kids at school play bad guys with guns, the conclusion is totally logical.  when i was her age, i was terrified the fireman was going to "chop me in half" with his axe.  he came to our school, told us to put those red stickers on our bedroom window, and if a fire occurred, he'd use the axe to break open the window.  my bed was right under my window, so i had nightmares about fires and fireman for at least a year.... sounds nutty, i know, but was totally logical to me at the time.  

    if you think helping her talk through these things on your own isn't working, i would have her talk to someone... it's always nice to have another perspective and some tips about how to help.  my mom did have me dictate and draw stories about the firefighter thing, and we discussed it a lot.  eventually i got over it, but i didn't have that sense of invasion your daughter must've felt knowing someone was in her house, so it is a bit different. kids are astoundingly resilient, but sometimes they need a nudge to get through the trickier times... just like the rest of us.  

    good luck.. i hope things calm down soon (just in time for the baby).   if it helps at all, my 4 year olds have been in love with and not one bit jealous of the babies in the family, so 5 is probably a fabulous age for being a big sister.

    • My daughter (0 / 0)

      has always been on good behavior at school, but I think that the effort of holding it all together at school means that sometimes when she gets home, she just explodes with all the frustrations and tiredness of the day. I can see it in stages, as she gets more comfortable and as they ask more of her, and as friendships wax and wane.

  • worry vs panic (0 / 0)

    I would try to calm your own fears that your DD is developing a panic disorder, if you can.  The fears at this age can feel very big, and repetitive worrying is not unusual.  This is a time when kids will worry if they're going to hell, that their parents will die (and that they may have caused it by wishing you dead!) .... lots of big, existential alarms going off.  They are beginning to feel more and more powerful, and that is exhilirating and terrifying.  

    With the experiences your girl has had, she has a concrete handle to anchor some of her fears.  But I think she might have some scary thoughts even if the other circumstances didn't exist.

    I suspect this phase will pass, with your steady calming reassuring presence.  Good luck to all of you!

    • Really? (0 / 0)

      I guess I just identify so strongly with those out of control existential worries. For instance I have YET to see "An Incovenient Truth" because I read an article on it and I was actually nauseously nervous and sleepless for two weeks afterward. I had actual panic attacks all through my late teens/early 20's and I'd hate to see her go through anything like that at age 5!!!

      • I'm just saying that (0 / 0)

        it can feel perseverative and worrisome when 5 year olds get scared but I do think it's a different animal from adult panic attacks.  Of course those are very real, too, but there's something about age 5 or so when it seems to hit us humans that, Holy shit! There's a big old world out there, and it's not all sunshine and ponies.

        Try not to worry :)  I bet she'll regain her sanguine outlook in a few months.  And I haven't seen "An Inconvenient Truth" yet either.  I read enough about climate change to scare the living sh&t out of me, I don't need the graphics or the soundtrack.  I don't have any particular problems with panic or anxiety but some things are just freakin' scary!  The food riots? Freak. me. out.  And I worry pretty constantly that DS won't have enough water to drink at some point in his lifetime.  Ahem.... I don't have an anxiety disorder, I don't!

        • WATER! (0 / 0)

          Yesterday, pre-meltdown by several hours, she asked me what Daddy and I would do if there wasn't enough water?! I said, we'd get her some. We'd always find water. She said, "What if you couldn't?"

          Yeah, I almost flipped right there in the car. Why does she always spring this on me when I'm driving?

          • Use it as an opportunity for a science lesson (0 / 0)

            Water isn't just something that comes out of a tap.

            Tell her about ways to make water out of other substances, like distillation; about rainwater catchment systems, about purifying surface water. Teach her about drilling for wells.

            There are island nations, for example, where for centuries people have depended on capturing rainwater into storage tanks.

            With knowledge comes power.

      • Panic or not (0 / 0)

        She's sharing these things with you, so hopefully she'll be able to continue doing that.  You are reassuring her, even if you can't lay all her fears completely to rest.

        My panic and anxiety problems are more tied to guilt, and to some extent they did start young, but what really made them into problems was the fact that I couldn't find a way to articulate them to anyone.

        • I hope (0 / 0)

          she always feels she can talk to me. Its a good point.

          I admire the way you are so open about your current fear/anxiety issues. When I was younger and clinically depressed and anxiety ridden I was very ashamed. I felt like I was weak and weird. Truth is, it takes a brave person to continue functioning under that kind of strain.

  • sounds normal (0 / 0)

    Some parents claim the odd numbered years are the worst.  That's certainly been true for us so far.

    I think in the 5th year they begin to understand that bad things really can happen, and that we don't have absolute power to protect them - that's very scary.  In our case, both of my boys have gone through a period of worrying that one or both of us might die.  Unfortunately we can't promise them we won't.  We went through a dangerous health crisis when the boys were 3.5 and 5, and adopted kids know for a fact that parents can and do disappear.

    We have had to talk all the way through the "what if" scenario with my elder son, now nearly 7.  He knows which uncle and aunt get custody if we die.  I have explained how he and his brother inherit our bank accounts, house, and life insurance, and which uncles are responsible for taking care of the money until they are grown up.  I have shown him the binder containing our will and estate plan - it was enormously comforting for him to see this impressively formal and official looking document, with so many pages of instructions about everything.  Once he was confident that we'd thought of everything and he was safe no matter what, his overall level of anxiety miraculously improved and he went back to being my sunny, secure little boy.

    Oh yeah, he's the snuggliest most affectionate boy in the world and he still hates me now and then. :-)  A minor "I hate you" is greeted with a casual "O RLY?".  But a big screaming "I HATE YOU!!!" in the middle of a raging fury is met with a "But I still love you"; this is often enough to melt him into my arms.

    • That is making me cry (0 / 0)

      OMG! So sweet. I hate that she thinks I'm mean, even though its TOTALLY normal. I have to remember that she really loves me.

      We've told Darling Girl that she is going to live with her Uncle and Aunt and cousin if something happened to us. She sobbed a little and then said, "If that happens, can I get a horse?" My husband started to object but I said quite loudly, "Yes, it will be in our will. If something happens to Mommy or Daddy, you get a horse and horseback riding lessons!" then I just glared at Daddy. She then said, "I still don't want you to die!" That was kind of funny.

      Later DH asked why I "caved" on the horse, I told him any kid that loses both parents should get a horse if they want it. He then turned and called his brother and sis-in-law and explained the new proviso.

      But it never occurred to me to show her actual documents, plans etc. We are getting life insurance today actually. I have a seperate money manager (BF is a CPA) from her guardians, and I have back-up guardians (my parents). Is there anything else I should be doing? Great, now I'm worried.

      BTW she asked us what would happen if we died, we didn't bring it up. I was trying to be direct with her.

      • funny aside (0 / 0)

        My 5 year old was looking through my wallet and asked, "When we get older will we get ten dollar bills for our allowance?  Maybe even TWENTY dollar bills???"  So I asked him how old he thought he'd have to be to get a $20 allowance.  He thought about it and said, "Maybe I'll just wait till you die and then I'll take your wallet."  

        He gave it some more thought and suddenly his eyes got big:  "Mom!  Before you die can you make sure you tell us what credit cards are used for what things?"

      • Take heart (0 / 0)

        If she didn't say you were mean, it would mean that either she doesn't trust you and feel safe with you, or that you were being way too permissive. :-)

        And if I may say so, get her the horseback riding lessons even if you don't die. :-) (But she's a little young for it yet: 7-8 or older is a good age to start.)

        I love that you codified your promise, though. That's quite cool of you. Most of us would've made the promise and forgotten.

        • Is that your girl? (0 / 0)

          She's beee-yoo-tiful! There is supposed to be a "getting familiar with horses" young kid class starting this summer. I am hoping to get her into it.

          My Mom had a horse till I was 3 or so. It is also in the will that she is the one responsible for choosing the horse and stable. :)

        • awww (0 / 0)

          I so hope that DD has a pony/horse phase.  I took her to the barn where my QH is semi-retired a few months back, though, and she had a meltdown before we even got into the barn.  Best she could do was sit in the car, parked near the pasture, and watch me feed him carrots.  

          Actually, in the last couple of months she has developed real anxiety towards dogs (all dogs, even small dogs on leashes 2 blocks away from her), and bugs.  All bugs.  Even the teeny-tiny ants on the patio.  Her attitude towards our cat varies day to day for no apparent reason but is manageable.  

          The dog thing I can understand a little, she hasn't had much exposure to dogs (although it has all been good).  The bug and cat thing baffles me.  

          Is there anything I can do to help her through, or will this, too, pass?

          --R

          • Just give it time (0 / 0)

            DD has sometimes been overbold with the horses and sometimes been overshy. I know that I had a scared-of-dogs phase as a child. You might be surprised by the random slightly negative encounters she may have had - like a neighbor dog briefly jumping on her, or a stray dog that barked at her. Those leave an impression.

            We're in an anti-bug phase too. It helps, probably, that I'm the one who deals with bugs, NOT daddy. Daddy does not like bugs either, though he puts on a brave face for DD. :-)

  • Okay, I agree that baby books suck (0 / 0)

    but I have to recommend a kid book.  It's called Raising Good Children and we use it in the human development course where I teach.  This specifically deals with moral development- how it happens, what can help support it, and how it's just as natural as physical development.  It's made a huge difference as I deal with my DS5- who's doing exactly this same thing.

  • omg (0 / 0)

    I think our daughters were separated at birth.  My daughter is a year younger and hasn't had panic attacks, but is very sweet and devoted, but whiney.    When I read somewhere that insecure children whine--a secure child would scream and yell--I felt even worse.  I rarely encounter direct anger, but the whining is out of control.

    I also feel like she's had a lot of somewhat traumatic transition, some of it outside our our control, and it's painful to see how negatively it's effected her.

    When our second was born, she welcomed him with open arms, but she had anxiety.  She even got nasty toward my mother, probably because she feels safe with her.  She told me "I DON'T like babies.  Well, I like my baby, and I like girl babies, but I don't like baby llamas!"  It helps to have special mother daughter nights,  and the day I was in labor we had such a great day together.  I don't have much advice, but I guess it's like any kid--try to focus more on strengths, like appreciating how lucky we are to have daughters who we can be close with and who know how to verbalize their feelings.  I feel for you.

    • Thank you! (0 / 0)

      Let me say the whininess is horrible, but so is being yelled at, which DD seems to be heading towards! I hope that your kid either learns to cope or just skips that stage all together, LOL!

      Yeah, and what's up with those weird pronouncments? "I don't like baby llamas?!" That sounds exactly like something my kid would say. I guess they are just trying to verbalize their mixed feelings. Heck, I'm the Mommy and I have mixed feelings about the new baby..."What have I gotten myself into?!" being the most common. :)

      • I think the llama thing (0 / 0)

        might have been back peddling, if I'm presumptuous enough to read her mind.  I think she started out trying to tell me that she didn't like the baby, but didn't feel safe saying that (she could have, I swear!), then wanted to make it clear that she didn't want to rule out a girl baby in the future, then llamas just popped into her mind.  A few minutes later, she asked for a baby llama.

    • not insecure (0 / 0)

      I guess I'm in the minority but it preserves my self-image as an okay mom to think it's not a bad thing if your kids don't yell at you and say they hate you.  So there.

      I don't think she held back from saying "I don't like THIS baby" because she doesn't feel safe with you.  I don't.

      One thing I love about the theatre for DS is the way he can express all kinds of feelings.  He's not a screamer or a hater by nature; he's pretty mellow.  But you know he's got those feelings in there somewhere.  I love it when he chooses a "mad" monologue for an audition or something.

      • I never told my parents I hated them (0 / 0)

        but my sisters did.

        My rationale was,  "Would I cry if they died?" The answer was always yes, so I never said it.

        My kid sisters on the other hand, whoo boy! But we all really loved our folks, I live 5 hours away from Mom and Dad and both my sisters live on the same street! I think it was just our personalities were just very different, as well as maturity levels.

        When I was an actor (many moons ago) I relished roles that let me express things I was uncomfortable doing in real life, so I totes get where your son is coming from!

      • Thanks :-) (0 / 0)

        I like to blame myself, but I think the truth is that Simone is just prone to a lot of existential angst, as am I.  

        And you're right.  The absence of abusive yelling is not a crime!

        • I guess that's my (0 / 0)

          issue. I was very angsty, and so was DH, so I just hope she doesn't go through what we did... its hard being scared of stuff you can't even really name/ express. I should probably stop projecting my issues on her, and yet be aware that these are things she may grapple with from time to time. Balance? Thy name is motherhood.

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