Mother Talkers

Cleavage and the Feminist Reawakening

Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:10:10 AM PDT

My best friend e-mailed me just yesterday about a conversation she had with the director she has been reporting to as a consultant. It was an odd conversation, started by my friend to address how she is perceived by the rest of the staff. BF is slightly younger than I am, very smart and in a position with some older men with more experience.

Somehow, and she wasn’t entirely clear about how it came about, the conversation took what I thought was an odd turn. From her e-mail:

He asked what I thought others thought of me. I said, I don't know to that one. He replied and said that some find me very easy to work with and some think I am pushy, however, he thinks that is unwarranted because they are throwing it out of proportion. He said in a meeting a couple weeks ago with a bunch of directors, he asked, how much cleavage is too much? So he asked me that in terms of how I dress. I told him I thought I dressed okay especially since I always wear a wrap. He asked if I thought my job and treatment in the area is effected by the fact that I am pretty girl with nice hair and a nice personality. He also said that someone like me doesn't need to try so hard, unlike some others out there.

Anyone else slightly creeped out? She assures me it "wasn't like that" but anyway. I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition to the recent New York Times Feature, "The Feminist Reawakening Hillary Clinton and the Fourth Wave."

  • ::

We've addressed the feminists for Hillary vs feminists for Obama discussion before, so I somewhat glossed over that particular part of the article. But what I thought was pertinent to the conversation I had with my BF was this:

But who wanted to complain? It was easier—and more fun—to take the Carly Fiorina approach: to shut up and compete with the boys. Who wanted to be the statistic-wielding shrew outing every instance of prejudice and injustice? Most women prefer to think of themselves as what Caroline Bird, author of Born Female, has called “the loophole woman”—as the exception. The success of those women is frequently cited as evidence that feminism has met its goals. But too often, the exceptional woman is also the exception that proves the rule.

Indeed, it might be said that the postfeminist outlook was a means of avoiding an unpleasant topic. “They don’t want to have the discussion,” a management consultant who worked at a top firm for nearly a decade told me, referring to her female colleagues. “It’s like, ‘I’m trying to have a level playing field here.’ ” Who wanted to think of gender as a divisive force, as the root of discrimination? Perhaps more relevant, who wanted to view oneself as a victim? Postfeminism was also a form of solipsism: If it’s not happening to me, it’s not happening at all. To those women succeeding in a man’s world, the problems wrought by sexism often seemed to belong to other women. But as our first serious female presidential candidate came under attack, there was a collective revelation: Even if we couldn’t see the proverbial glass ceiling from where we sat, it still existed—and it was not retractable.

At the conclusion of her discussion with the director at work, BF went out and bought new clothes, and decided to dress more conservatively. My response was snarky, as was my mood on Monday. My response:

Here is the issue. all this shit is part of the problem not a solution. Some people think you're easy to work with, some think you're difficult. Bull shit. "Difficult to work with' is code for "woman who doesn't step back and let you take over". And the dress thing is the SAME SHIT. Oh, I can't take you seriously because you have boobies. Oh, you're too PRETTY to be smart, why don't you tone that down. IT IS SHIT. It better get better by the time lily has to work. God

Her response was essentially what the NYT article mentioned- it's a game, and she'll just play it. It's an attitude I understand, but it also gives me a raging headache. Because I don't know where to go from where we're at. I know it's crap, I know it's a sign that the movement ain't over, not by a long shot. So while I appreciate the article, the end is frustrating:

The past few months have been like an extended consciousness-raising session, to use a retro phrase that would have once made most of us cringe. We’ve parsed the gender politics of the campaign with other women in the office, at parties, over e-mail, and now we’re starting to parse the gender politics of our lives. This is, admittedly, depressing: How can we be confronting the same issues, all these years later? But it’s also exciting. It feels as if a window has been opened in a stuffy, long-sealed room. There is a thrill at the collective realization. Now the question is, what next?

Yes, what? I haven't the foggiest. Thoughts?

Tags: feminsim, workplace, 2008 candidates (all tags)

Permalink | 53 comments

  • The workplace is always a game to some extent (0 / 0)

    Whether you're male or female.

    I don't know what she was wearing, but if the worst thing is that she had to change her wardrobe a little, I don't think that's so terrible. Learning to project the right image is harder for women in some circumstances - but it is not always easy for men, either.

    Some workplaces just suck. The key is having the options to find better ones, something not everyone has (male or  female).

    Something to consider: even worse than being female, in terms of projecting the right image and sense of authority, is being short, regardless of gender.

  • I can see other interpretations in this (0 / 0)

    Obviously I don't know the people involved, the company culture, or how they dress.  But your post brought back memories of a couple of talented but clueless young women fresh out of college.  Some young women think that dressing to look "hot" is their right, and anyone who disapproves is just jealous.  They assume they should be judged on their work alone.  But unprofessional dress in a young employee screams of immaturity or weak judgment.  It's just much harder for the boys to fall into that trap.

    Women's clothing is so much more diverse than men's, which opens up far more potential for error.  And we have a much stronger age component in our choices.  "I can't take you seriously because you have boobies" might actually break down as "I can't take you seriously because you dress like an 18 year old, and you wouldn't dress like an 18 year old if you didn't have boobies".

    I'm getting way off topic here - this probably has nothing to do with your friend.  It's just my longwinded way of saying that our clothing is the one thing about our appearance that we choose, so judgments here do reflect on us.  And women who try to play up their physical assets can end up looking immature in the eyes of older employees, which will certainly hold them back.  

    • I've seen this (0 / 0)

      but it probably depends on who the employer is. A company wanting to be young and hip look for young, hip, stylish employees. I'll tell you that when I went on a job search recently, I got an earful from a female colleague about "we are now at a new level and we are women, not girls. Buy a conservative, professional suit. Do not buy your suits in the juniors section!"  I followed her advice and when I got to the initial interviews, I saw exactly what she meant. She also said to carry a professional bag. You need for people to take your ideas seriously and not be distracted by something else like clothes. When you are selling a house (your skills) you want people to see the house (brain/ability) and not the furniture (cleavage)!

      "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

      by progressiveinky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:56:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • yeah and (0 / 0)

        i worked for a company where I didn't realize WHY my boss kept asking me where I got my shoes and purse from until a co-worker gently told me that she was commenting on the fact they were not name brand, that most of my colleagues had prada shoes and Dooney and Burke purses, and it didn't let up until I spent way too much money on a 2 pairs of uncomfortable shoes and a Coach purse.

        but I suppose because that was the "corporate culture" there, it was just expected that I dress that way, and I shouldn't complain about that kind of harassment? If jobs were plentiful and you could bounce around I'd say sure, just quit, but give me a break.

    • My reaction was similar (0 / 0)

      For example, I'm having trouble thinking of any professional outfit that involves a wrap.

    • there is a BIG difference though (0 / 0)

      as a manager I had to send my report home to change- she literally woke up from going out the night before and came in. foot long skirts? Ok, no. Obviously.

      But I don't want to pretend that there isn't a double standard when it comes to dress. I have a big chest. I wear things to cover my chest, sure, but put me in anything other than a scoop or v neck and I look like my shirt is eating my face. It just doesn't happen. I can't wear a button down shirt without buying it two sizes too big (and look sloppy) or pin the hell out of it, often calling more attention to the area.

      I had a boss with a large chest, and she attempted to conceal it entirely with higher necklines and large suit jackets. All her efforts got her was the nick-name "the walking shelf". So really, when you have them, they are noticed no matter what you do, and the elephant in the room is that this woman- an employee for 35 years and highly regarded VP- could not avoid these comments, and people thought it was perfectly acceptable to make them.

    • one more thing (0 / 0)

      let's not forget cost. the clueless college graduate is probably not MAKING a whole hell of a lot of money, most likely has debt, and a suit from the junior's section costs about 1/4 what a professional one costs.

      • Yes but (0 / 0)

        The young person in a cheap suit will be viewed as earnest but broke.  Nearly everyone starts out like that so as long as the suit has a conservative cut she'll get credit for doing her best.  Assuming she's correctly assessed the dress code at her company she'll come out ahead of her trendy colleague in the tight skirt and strappy top, even if the cheap suit fails to camoflage her large ta-tas.

  • Creepy for sure (0 / 0)

    But unfortunately, appropriate work attire is important, if often unfair.  That being said, I have worked with men who I wish I could have taken aside and talked to about their clothes.  It's hard to have a lunch meeting and eat across from a man with his hairy chest popping out because he left the top three buttons undone.  I've usually worked in pretty casual places, but I still didn't like one editor showing off his long, dirty toenails because he always wore Tevas.  

    My pet peeve is places that still insist women wear hose.  In many parts of the country, hose is not fashionable anymore, for which I rejoice.  Hose is uncomfortable, expensive, and always seemed to me to be just plain silly.  What, I look way more dressed because I have see-through fabric on my legs?  

    • I have a problem (0 / 0)

      with the few work places that still insist women wear skirts or dresses.  And there are still a few....

    • tank top tshirts under (0 / 0)

      professional shirts. Yuck!

      "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

      by progressiveinky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:57:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • hose (0 / 0)

      What, I look way more dressed because I have see-through fabric on my legs?

      Mandatory hose pisses me off, because seriously? It's about an idealized version of femininity- hairless, smooth, no blemishes of any kind, slightly tan. Mandatory hose is sexist, IMO. I refused to wear hose on my wedding day, I ain't gonna wear it 8 hours to work.

      Tights I get, if they fit right, and maternity hose weren't so bad, but mainly because they added support, so I'm not saying "hose all SUCKS!" but yeah...

      Makeup is another thing- ask anyone what they think of a woman sans makeup in an office and they'll make comments about her looking unprofessional, unclean somehow, or "tired".

      • why I wear the pants (0 / 0)

        If you can find a decent pants suit, you're in good shape.  But finding a decent suit at any price is damn near impossible in my experience.  

        At least we don't have to wear ties -- how ridiculous is that.  

        --R

  • I don't know. (0 / 0)

    Maybe she is trying a little too hard and is coming off as too pushy for some people...not sure that's a male/female thing.  A lot of older employees don't like a new kid on the block who comes in and tries to "take over".  Not that she's doing that...but, it is a work place politics kind of thing.

    I don't know how she dresses...but, you know, I worked in banking, and let me tell you, those people were a bunch of conservative dressers.  

  • Argh! (0 / 0)

    The whole cleavage thing just drives me nuts. I don't know what your friend looks like, but I am an E cup. TMI, I know, but germaine to the conversation. Size 10  on the bottom; size 16 on top. I hate it. The thing that sucks is that it's kind of hard to find clothes that don't show cleavage to some degree. I can look in the mirror and think that I'm totally covered up, but a man who is 6'3" can look right down my shirt and thinks I'm showing off the girls on purpose.

    To which I say, stop looking down my shirt, asshole, we're at work. In preschool, we all learn to keep our hands to ourselves. We need to learn to keep our eyes to ourselves, too.

    • You sound like my daughter. (0 / 0)

      And it isn't even a question of cleavage...if she wears a turtleneck it can look as if she's trying to be "revealing".  

    • she is a tiny indian girl (0 / 0)

      with large cha chas, as she calls em. So yes, she is essentially what you've described.

    • Keeping your eyes to yourself. (0 / 0)

      You know when you're in a bar, probably a sports bar in this hypothetical, and you're just there to talk to a friend, and there are TVs all around. Imagine there's one over your friend's shoulder. You're talking to him, but the flashing lights of the TV just keep drawing your eyes toward the TV. It's really difficult to keep your eyes on your friend, sometimes impossible. It's like there's just part of you that's drawn to the TV, regardless of what's on, regardless of whether you care. The TV just pulls your eyes in that direction.
      Breasts are the same. I'll try to keep my eyes on the person I'm talking to, but my eyes, especially if that person has large breasts, will just keep getting drawn in that direction. It's frustrating, annoying, and whether I have any sexual interest in that person, respect that person, or really care about what they're saying has little or no bearing on whether my eyes will be drawn there. If I'm not concentrating, I may not even realize that's where my eyes are pointed.
      That's really the only analogy I've ever found that women understand when I'm asked why men keep looking at their chests. Because we all understand the TV thing, it happens to all of us.

      Of course, leering is not OK. Treating you like a pair of boobs with a person attached is not OK. And if you realize it's happening, you should make an effort to stop. But unfortunately, there's really only so much you can make yourself do, and oftentimes it's as annoying to us as it is to you. I'd really rather be looking at your face. Really. I just.. sometimes find it difficult.

      A comment I've heard numerous times about Islamic dress is that the Islamic world takes an opposing view to this than the western. The western world says that men need to learn to not judge women on their appearance, and not let their eyes be drawn. The Islamic world says that men will judge women on their appearance, and no amount of appealing to them to stop will change that, it's just how they're programmed, and so women should dress in a way that removes the temptation for men to judge them by appearance. While I wouldn't advocate something so extreme, I do think that they have a point, and that where possible (it sounds like for many of you, there's only so much you can do) it's worth trying to minimize how much is, um, obvious. None of which removes the obligation from men to try to keep their eyes to themselves and not let aesthetics change that, but sometimes that's not so easy.

      "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

      by Expat Briton on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:18:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • You are a brave, brave anonymous man (0 / 0)

        First let me just say "Oh CRAP!" If forgot that this isn't the ladies' locker room and sometimes guys are reading this stuff.

        I'm just going to explain in my own experience why I don't buy this.

        I will start with a case study: my husband. He is a self-proclaimed boob man. He is a professional 'looker'--literally, he's a radiologist and his brain was programmed through 10 years of training to look at stuff 'real good.' He is the most visual man I've ever met, and we ladies can all agree that is really saying something.

        That said, he does not look at other women's knockers. I'm sure he notices them, but his eyes do not linger.  I've been watching him talk to ladies for 20 years, and he doesn't do it. Why? Because looking at people's private parts is rude and he has some self control.

        Now onto 'other' men. Most men DON'T look at the boobs. I've been looked at plenty. I am very aware of it when it happens, and it ususally doesn't. The men who DO look will look whether or not cleavage is showing. Clothing is irrelevant. Those guys are just rude, and don't have self control.

        Now onto me. I totally have 'wandering eye syndrome.' I get distracted by nice jewelry or an interesting design in a sweater or a flickering t.v. But I don't run around staring at people's crotches or their behinds because--I'm sure you're seeing the theme here--it's rude and I have some self-control.

        As for Saudia Arabia, I just read a book on the lives of Saudi Arabian women two months ago, so the whole "it's for your own protection" thing is fresh with me. When will men realize how insulting that is--to them! Am I to believe that the men I know are no better than animals on the rut? That they 'just can't help it'? I know men who can discipline themselves to run marathons, complete professional school and meditate daily; but they can't discipline themselves not to look at someone's rack on the job?

        Dude, please.

        • Just one thing to say. (0 / 0)

          Expat and I have known each other 6 years, been together for 5, married for 4. In those 6 years, I have never once seen him look at any woman's breasts other than mine. Yet, as he just said, he does.

          Don't confuse "look at" with "stare at open-mouthed and drooling."

          • good point (0 / 0)

            I think the difference, though, is that I don't think Expat is saying "and since i cannot help but stare at breasts, they should always be covered lest I think you cannot do your job because they are exposed." My interpretation of what he's saying if you don't want to BE looked at, be more wary.

            The point of my friend's discussion, though, was that by sheer presence of having boobs that aren't completely covered, the people around her think she's incapable of her work. That is ridiculous, IMO

            • If only (0 / 0)

              I have rarely, if ever, wanted to be looked at breast-wise--as evidenced by the dowager's hump I've got from slouching for the past quarter century--but that hasn't really made any difference. Nor have clothing choices. It really comes down to the man.

              Your friend should frame this picture of Angela Merkel and put it on her desk.

            • I'd hoped my point would come across as... (0 / 0)

              ...a little more subtle than that, and I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave. I think it's a complex subject, and one in which there's never going to be a perfect answer - I think women need to understand that they do need to make an effort where possible, and men need to understand that they should try to keep their eyes off and not let a woman's appearance dictate to them what they think that woman's competence will be. But honestly, I think both men and women need to understand that appearances, especially when appearances appeal (intentionally or not) sexually will make a difference as to how they'll view a person. I worry more about those who deny that appearance affects their judgment, because I think they're kidding themselves. It's harder to deal with a problem when you won't even accept that that problem exists.

              As for your discussion with your friend, yes, I'd agree that her colleagues need to get a grip.

              "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

              by Expat Briton on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:03:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • :) (0 / 0)

                I didn't take it like that, sorry if it came across that way. We're all apologies today! :)

                I agree, it's harder to deal with a problem if you pretend it doesn't exist, which was kind of why I ranted to my BFF. My issue is if we're in the workplace, and we do this prairie girl-cover-up nonsense, and downplay our bodies, our personalities, etc. to fit into what some 50 year old guy's idea of a "good corporate girl" is, then we've lost the ground we're trying to gain, that women do not have to be men to work as well as men do.

                The flipside, which hasn't been mentioned much here, is the opposite- dressing like a "mouse" or acting more demure (not pushy) gets you no respect either... it's a madonna / whore complex to the corporate level- you either have to be androgynous to the men around you, asexual, or you have to adjust to whomever you happen to be around.

                My company is a 4 person operation, essentially, and the woman I consider to be a mentor is someone who worked in the hardware world for over 20 years. We joke about what it was like, dealing with the hardware guys- you'd either have to bat your eyes and be really feminine (and then get the "well, she's probably not as bright as me but she's nice enough) or take go to the after-work beer fests and "laugh" at the tit jokes and the like and be one of the guys. It's just so damn frustrating... one of the reasons she bailed, in fact, and I know if you told the owner that, or one of the guys she used to work with that she left mainly because of the bullshit, they'd never believe it, because she doesn't seem like the "type to be bugged by it".

          • Apologies (0 / 0)

            You seem to be angry and thinking that I've insulted your husband. I just want to be clear that this, like I said in the second paragraph, is a counterpoint based on my own experiences. I do not mean to imply that he falls into the categories of men I outline.

            Because really now, everyone knows that breasts are not the same as TVs...they're more like headlights.

            ;)

          • aaaah (0 / 0)

            well, nice to meet the Missus!

        • Well, the anonymous removes the need for brave. (0 / 0)

          But FWIW, I'd probably say the same thing in person. The women's locker room talk is something I got used to in High School, our music department (where I spent virtually all the time I wasn't in class) was a separate building and I was virtually the only guy who spent a lot of time there. After a while, the girls just treated me as if I was one of them, for better or worse, so the locker room stuff is well within my comfort zone - what I have to remind myself is that it's generally not within the comfort zone of women who don't know me to talk about it when I'm in range.

          I think the question is, as Sister Q says, how much looking is looking? Most of my friends throughout school and university were women. Had it seemed like I was leering or staring, I'm sure they wouldn't have been comfortable with that, and they wouldn't have been my friends. Ditto, if I were staring at my wife's friends boobs, I'm sure she would have heard something. I do make an effort not to look, what I'm saying is that only takes you so far, and the more "exposed" someone is, the harder it is to keep your eyes off.

          This site is an offshoot from a political blog. Most of us understand the concept of "framing," that the terms in which you couch a political topic affects, subconsciously, how someone will receive that message. So much of politics today is working with those subconscious mental processes, using them to get voters to agree with you. Modern politics is, in large part, based upon understanding that much of what we do isn't voluntary, it's automatic, there are certain parts of brain architecture and chemistry that remain pretty universal, and reactions that are preprogrammed. Assessing things that we find sexual is an automatic process. I can no more turn it off than I can stop myself from getting hungry. I can minimise it, and people should, but I can't make it completely go away.

          Now onto me. I totally have 'wandering eye syndrome.' I get distracted by nice jewelry or an interesting design in a sweater or a flickering t.v. But I don't run around staring at people's crotches or their behinds because--I'm sure you're seeing the theme here--it's rude and I have some self-control.

          So what you're saying is that you're unable to control where you look for some things, but for others, you can control where you look. So here's my question: why if you can't prevent your eyes from wandering to some objects is it so difficult for you to believe that other people can't prevent their eyes from wandering to different objects? One rule for yourself, one rule for others?

          "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

          by Expat Briton on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:55:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  • hmmmph (0 / 0)

    without being there, it's hard to comment 100% relevently. There are a couple of ways to interpret, as others have pointed out. Yeah, some people are really not as aware of career-appropriate wardrobes. I know my sister bought a couple of low-cut tops when she started her job straight out of college; cleavage, yes, but also all her tattoos were on display. My mom dispaired. But I've noticed that in the years since, those tops have gone out of circulation and she's bought more conservative outfits.

    We've all had our moments like this, I think. When I was a freshman at BU, I was an intern on the Kerry 1996 senatorial campaign, and often would cover the front reception to answer phones (glamorous, right!?). At some point, I spent a weekend putting in Manic Panic magenta streaks in my hair. Showed up at the office the next day and sat at the front desk. Campaign manager walks in, takes one look at me and gestures me into his office. Tells me straight out that while people in the office liked the hard work and expected me to "play a role" in the later campaign (yeah, okay), but that if I wanted to step up from stuffing envelopes, I had to take myself seriously and that people were going to judge me negatively if I was putting weird colors in my hair. The streaks wore off within a week. I was actually really grateful for the talk, but to my mind, it was presented in a totally different way than your friend's talk.

    But the whole "what do you think people think of you" line was really creepy. I could accept someone gently passing on wardrobe advice, although I think if that was the boss's intention, perhaps asking a women colleague to gently have a word would have accomplished the same point and not had the creepy sexual overtone there.

    As for problems with fit, yeah, that can be a total PITA. I'm not that big on top - C cup, but I have a real hourglass figure - 26 waist, 39 hips. So difficult to buy trousers and skirts that fit; either they're fine at the waist and way too tight at the hips and crotch (that horrible cat-whisker shaped crease), or fine at the hip and swimming around the waist. I use a tailor where needed - they're not always that expensive; depending what kind of alteration, it can be less than $20 per. It's worth it to have clothes that are tailored to fit you and flatter the figure!

    • yes (0 / 0)

      At least she had a boss who was willing to give her a word to the wise, however clumsily or awkwardly done.  The woman in the OP went out and bought herself some new clothes, so she clearly thought it was advice worth taking.  Most male supervisors won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole - they're too afraid of it coming out the wrong way.  So they leave the poor employee to suffer the consequences unknowingly.  

      I've always thought that women were actually more judgmental of inappropriate clothing than men.  

      • hmm (0 / 0)

        If it were me and a male boss told me about my dress, I think I'd be very uncomfortable and wondering what he actually meant. I'd prefer to hear it from a woman. However, I will freely say that I've always had wonderful women colleagues/supervisors in my life, so I haven't run into any judgemental/cattiness. Sexism, for sure - financial reporting? Talking to male hedge fund managers? OMFG, yuck. I have a very attractive, whip-smart friend who I worked with in London. She's one of the best reporters I know, and just gorgeous. The things she's had to hear from men over the years?  Ewwww! Probably the most benign is when men who meet her at company functions think she's a secretary or personal assistant to an editor, rather than an editor herself. Because, of course, she's too attractive to be an editor...

    • and by the way (0 / 0)

      I'm your inverse - I'm a perfect cylinder, viewed from any angle.  Well, OK, make that an imperfect lumpy cylinder - but still a distinctly cylindrical shape.  That means that any skirt or pants that fit me in the hips doink me in badly at the waist, creating a perpetual muffin-top that I have to try to hide with blousey shirts.

  • this is one of those times (0 / 0)

    that I am so, SO happy to work as a newspaper reporter, where wearing close-toed shoes is considered "dressing up."

    Most days its jeans, a sweater and boots for me...and I can't remember the last time I wore pantyhose <shudder>.

  • Wow (0 / 0)

    It sounds like he was trying to give her professional advice...albeit in a clumsy and patronizing sort of way.

    Bless his heart.

  • i agree with lilianna this is b.s. (0 / 0)

    I find the conversation creepy. Would he have had the same conversation with a man? I doubt it. Besides, if you want to address personality issues with someone, give some concrete examples for the person instead of "some people think you're pushy." Name me someone that's at the head of a company that isn't "pushy" sometimes. How do you think they got there? Besides, pushy for one person is assertive for another (usually female and male, respectively).

    I think Seth Godin hit this subject on the head, albeit in a different way, on his blog today: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/... "George Clooney is not normal." By adjusting to their expectations of who we are or should be and only meeting those, she has now, at least in part, forsaken her own persona. The more we (as women) "play the game," the more we lower our expectations for ourselves and for the men around us. We're telling them, yes, we expect you to keep us in a box, stereotype us, we'll do what you want, and we'll be what you expect us to be because we don't want to make you uncomfortable or ask you to change.  I agree that we shouldn't intentionally do stupid things to distract people from the quality of our work (e.g. dressing like a hooker at a professional office or cursing like a sailor), but on the other hand, allowing men to dictate your personality and wardrobe is a slippery slope. Where is she, or any woman, going to draw the line and say enough is enough?

    Working with all men who are all over 50 (I'm in my 30s), I think I've seen and heard my share of silliness like this. I've called them on it at times (e.g. don't all women want to stay home with their kids?), smiled and thanked them at times when they shared helpful experiences (e.g. the tone of your brief is a little strong for this judge), and simply ignored them at times (e.g. you're moody today - I've said the same thing back to them). Regardless, they've accepted me, because my work is great and I've even made friends with a few. Even so, I don't want them to ever think they can put me in a box of their making based on their own stereotypes. I'd rather keep them guessing.

    I guess, we all have to decide for ourselves at our workplaces what to do in these situations, but to write this type of behavior off as "just some game" is to hide one's head in the sand and ignore the reality of women's lack of equality in the workplace that continues to hold us all back. Sex discrimination and harassment is much more subtle nowadays, but still prevalent.

  • cleavage is inappropriate at any job (0 / 0)

    Sorry, I get irked when I see newscasters with their old boobs hanging out. Goof grief.  In this day and age women should be smart enough to know that showing your boobs is considered sexual, period.  It is too bad that is the case but women have done as much as men to sexualize breasts.  One minute women want to be taken seriously, then they want to be seen as sexual and then they want to breast feed in public and have no one think a thing about the boob coming out.  Make up your minds as a group ladies! Are breasts sexual or not?  Decide.  That same women you wrote about would probably flip if a co-worker, male or female, made a pass as her.  But she has her boobs on display for everyone to ogle.  If you want to be taken seriously dont show up at work with your penis or breasts showing.  It is just that easy.  Her boss was trying to save her career and reputation.  

    • WOW (0 / 0)

      Goof grief.  In this day and age women should be smart enough to know that showing your boobs is considered sexual, period.

      yeah, no. Boobs are not purely sexual, they are actually functioning parts of the fricking body. And that's the same kind of bullshit idea that makes people think they have a right to not see a woman breastfeeding. yeeeeaahh... this is turning into a very long friday.

    • yuck (0 / 0)

      "Make up your minds as a group"? OK then, who wants to take the lead in organizing the Breasts: Sexual or Functional? caucus?

      Just because our society considers boobs purely sexual doesn't mean that's the way it should be. We have boobs. Short of going all FLDS and wearing prairie clothing all the time, sometimes our clothes is going to accentuate our boobs. People need to deal.

      And I'm sorry, but is "having boobs on display for everyone to ogle" an excuse for a man to make an unwanted pass at a woman? Just so we're clear...

  • Is it crass to say (0 / 0)

    that boobs in push-up bra and a sexy top are sex onjects, boobs nursing a baby are functional. Your butt encased in tight jeans and a thong is sexual, when you're on the toilet it is functional. Is there no such thing as context????

    • context (0 / 0)

      is a beautiful thing...

    • yes but (0 / 0)

      cleavage being visible and existing is not overtly sexual either. We're not talking about walking around in push up bras and see through- camis or whatever, we're saying a button down shirt with a few buttons open, a dress with a scoop neck with a wrap, a v-neck that barely plunges...

      I have cleavage every day I don't wear something buttoned up to the neck- it's the way I'm built.

  • cleavage is sexual (0 / 0)

    Women made boobs sexual in the first place.  If yo udont want them viewed as sexual then cover them up.  A little cleavage is still a boob on display.  Why is it not considered sexual unless the nipple is showing?  Context?  A penis is sexual whether ladies view it peeing or erect.  So if a man thinks of breasts as sexual and women make it so by hanging them out or wearing sexy lingerie then they are sexual.  You can t have it both ways, sorry.  Here is a little secret ladies.  No matter how accomplished you are, how hard you work, how equal you are treated at work, guys will still wonder what you look like naked.  All of them.  So dont give them more ammo.  Go ahead, ask your guys friends.  Now go to work on Monday assuming that every guy, no matter how nice has at least once, wondered what you look like naked while talking to you.  They all have.

    • whatevs (0 / 0)

      sorry but a flaccid or urinating penis? is ANYTHING but sexual to me.

      And women made boobs sexual in the first place? Is that a biology or world history lesson that I somehow missed when I was in high school? I'd love for you to list your sources on that wholesale claim.

      In the meantime, I'll get to work on my FLDS-style prairie wardrobe...I wouldn't want to give all those weak, pathetic men out there a reason to jump my bones! Thanks to your insight, now I know they just can't help themselves...

      • Actually legally (0 / 0)

        at least here in Florida it is not considered sexual either. My husband has a case where a man has been walking around naked in the common areas of his apartment complex, sometimes in full view of children. Can he be charged with indecent exposure? No, because naked isn't sexual. To be indecent exposure you have to be naked and sexual, something like touching genitalia or simulating a sex act... naked and peeing or apparently just walking around is not a sexual act. Every state is different of course, but most states require you to be "up to something" or as we say here in the south naked (nude and noble) or nekkid (nude and up to no good)!

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