Mother Talkers

i AM grateful to be a SAHM...

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:25:55 PM PDT

but i am horrified too.  or maybe just sad.  or something in between.  

i used to be so proud of the job i did with that elusive "work/life balance".  i started out as a single mom, first to sam, and then we added his sister maya.  when they were babies, my mom helped with childcare.  i had students (college age) cover for me when i needed to teach after sam got off the bus.  i never worked more than three days/week outside the home, and got all of my work done at night after they'd gone to bed... being a night owl is handy that way.  i was good at my job and good at being a mom.  neither defined me, but both shaped who i was.  

well, in the last two years, we've expanded our family to add three more people... my husband bill, charlie(2) and abby (9mos).  i worked through both pregnancies as an assistant professor, but it became very clear after abby arrived that the "balance" had tipped.. our sweet little tipping point, we joked.

it is wholly apparent that my family and our home thrive when i am focused on them, and that they do not when i am trying to split my focus between a job and a houseful of 6 people.  even when i am teaching just one course, getting childcare, nannies, having my mom pitch in, none of it adds up like it used to.  i feel the pull of what i expect many women feel much of the time, and i am fortunate to have the option to stay home with the kids.  the balance became very imbalanced, and with no sign that it would let up in the near future, i resigned from my position last week.  one year short of tenure i was rumored to have earned.  

do i REALLy care about tenure?  no.  i despise the hoop system.  yet, there is still something in knowing you've done it.  i hated going through hoops to get my ph.d., but once i was finished, i did feel proud of what i had accomplished (defending 8 months pregnant with charlie...  i had been "dissertating" through all of our family-building years).  do i enjoy working as an academic?  yes and no.  i love teaching.  i love preparing students to work with young children in child care centers and schools.  but i hated meetings, and it seemed i was the only one who would openly admit that fact.  i did manage to write what was needed to move towards tenure, but i have no burning desire to research and publish.  i was often frustrated that "service" meant working on committees in my department, college, or across the university... not actually working in the community to make things happen.  i am already slated to teach a course each semester next year as an adjunct, so i will stay connected that way.  

so why does it feel like such a loss?

i think i figured it out this week.  despite the fact that i can still teach, and am now free from the meetings, writing, and responsibilities of department life, it was a career.  teaching one course as an adjunct is not a career.  i did that in addition to my old career, going to grad school, and being a mom.  so now, i don't have a career.  more like a hobby with low pay.  i think some part of me is grieving that loss. i love my kids.  i love being a mom. .. really love it.  i just never thought i'd be a SAHM, and really, i don't think i ever wanted to be.  i am trying to want to be one now.  i am grateful.  we are so forutnate.  i am an early chldhood person, so i know how important the first few years are.  the thing is, i also learned to do that well while having a career.  i had no guilt, i spent loads of time with my kids, they were happy and loved, and i was out doing what i loved too.  

gosh, this all still sounds so whiny.  but i thought some people here might understand, since i can't really even admit this out in the real world... everyone just says how lucky i am to stay at home.  except the colleagues i left, who think i am absolutely nuts.  if i feel this conflicted leaving a job in early childhood education for my own in-home lab school, i can only imagine how SAHMs who are true career changers from other occupations handle the transition.  i've been home for almost a year now; i guess i'm still getting used to it.  

Tags: SAHM, work-life balance (all tags)

Permalink | 136 comments

  • It's tricky isn't it (0 / 0)

    I'm a SAHM Mom(and I don't see that changing any time in the near future since number 3 will be here in July)and while I love it and love my kids,it's not necessarily something I ever imagined for me. I am blessed to be able to have this time with my kids but have at times "mourned" the loss of the other me. In the end I found it most helpful to realize that whatever it is I am (or am not) doing at any given time be it a day,week,decade,etc. does not define me. That I'm a SAHM NOW doesn't mean I can't or won't ever contribute outside the home again. I'm still a person with friends,hobbies,interests and ideas. I don't have to give those parts of my life up but right now,I'm doing what's best for my family so some of the priorities shift for. Hang in there,it isn't an easy transition but it can be and is,in my case,rewarding.

  • I'm in total empathy with you (0 / 0)

    I'm freelance, and I miss the aspect of having a "career" as a journalist. I work hard, but I don't have that go-out-into-the-big-world-in-work-clothes feeling and separate persona.

    I'm like you - I feel so fortunate to have this lifestyle open to me and the opportunities to spend so much time with Jess, but I miss what I used to have!

    What I try to keep in mind is that the early years go so quickly and, touch wood, life is long. So while right now the balance is with the home and the young'uns, the day will come when being a career person again is not out of the question.

    So type away - you're definitely in good company here.

  • I'm grateful I had the choice. (0 / 0)

    Many women don't.  Staying home, because I chose to, felt as if it was a real decision, you know?  I wasn't home because it wasn't possible or acceptable for me to work.  

    That said, I always assumed that I would go back someday.  When health problems made that an impossibility, I have to admit that I was a little bitter.  Not bitter about my choice so much, but bitter that society thought so little of what I had spent the past years doing that I felt rather written off.  

  • grateful, no (0 / 0)

    I suppose I'm a bit resentful.  We're lucky of course that we are comfortable enough financially.  So I am doing it, I love my kids, and this is best for the family right now.  

    But it's not who I am.  In my 20s I worked 12 hr days 6 days a week, with a part day most Sundays, and I was happy.  I got my PhD back when my subfield was still considered "macho".  I got a prestigious postdoc, then an intense job.  With one child I was able to dial down the job a bit and still manage, but with two?  No dice.  And my field really doesn't have a slow lane, and there's limited opportunity for reentry once you're "overqualified" but out of it. 20 years as a scientist, and now what?

    My mental health was doing really badly until I went back to school.  Now that I have an outlet for that other part of me I'm doing much better, and the whole family is happier.  But I'm going to have to take a degree soon.

    I'm really jealous of those of you who actually enjoy playing Chutes and Ladders.  I start climbing the walls.  I hate soccer practice.  I'm trying to want this life, but failing.

    • do you have to have that life? (0 / 0)

      have you explored whethere there is a nonprofit avenue to put your skills to work?  Nonprofits typically have awesome benefits and are way more flexibile with time -- and I bet there are some out there who wyoud love someone like you.

      I just don't think anyone should be forced to try to "want" a life that doesn't fit them.  Not every mom or dad is cut out to be home and I continue to resent the implication that that should be what we all want.   I couldn't do it and never wanted to do it.  

      I hope you can find something that makes you happier - you sound so sad...  

      • Co-Signed (0 / 0)

        I think that women are expected to fit into certain molds and we can experience real social sanctions when we are unable or unwilling to. Also the resulting depression is at best - downplayed, and at worst - largely ignored.

      • a little stuck right now (0 / 0)

        I deeply want to stay in science, as that is a huge part of my identity.  I've tried to retrain into a more useful scientific field - I don't think many non-profits are looking for gene jocks - but am not sure how far that will get me and the state budget crisis is hitting my new area hard.

        Right now, though, I'm kind of stuck.  It's going to be a couple of months before I know how time consuming my son's disorder is going to be in the long term, but in the short term I need to be available for I don't know how many different screenings and specialists.  We're very fortunate in that there is a specialist for this type of rare disease about 1.5 hrs away, but that's still a block of time allocated to appointments.  My husband's job is going to be intense for the next couple of years and we're committed for financial reasons to sticking this out.  I just don't see committing to a full time job in the near future, and biology is not a part time field.

    • Heh (0 / 0)

      I'm really jealous of those of you who actually enjoy playing Chutes and Ladders.  I start climbing the walls.  I hate soccer practice.  I'm trying to want this life, but failing.

      I waver between grateful for the chance and how you feel.  I love home-with-infant time.  I even LOVED work-with-under-2 time.  But home-with-2-year-old is NOT my idea of fun.

  • When I left Grad School (0 / 0)

    I made a deliberate decision NOT to stay in academia.  I was lucky to have several great female mentors, but they had all clearly sacrificed in their personal lives to get tenure.  So, I am "in the field" - I love the work that I do, but sometimes I miss the intellectual challenge of university life, so I can relate to that aspect of your story at a very gut level.

    We also had our own "tipping point" - we moved states when my DD was 5, both changing homes and jobs, and helping her in a new school.  We knew we couldn't do it with both of us working full-time, so I embraced the option of staying home, and then we had #2, and I had the delicious luxury of being home with him for 15 months.

    Eventually, I was ready to work again, and have been fortunate to find a career that is not in academia.  Sometimes, at conferences, I feel like I made a lesser choice.  But mostly, when I can relax at home and not worry about the "hoops" of academic life, I'm happy with my choices.

    Sorry to go on and on with my story, instead of offering you support on yours, but it just felt like a BTDT moment.  Things evolve, opportunities arise, and maybe you'll find a new career path when your babies are a little older, and it'll fit your lifestyle just perfectly!

  • so timely (0 / 0)

    I totally sympathize -- I felt like I had it all together until about a year ago, when I took some bad advice and switched from part time, which I loved, to full time.  Now I've got to figure out what I want to do, how driven I really am, and how the hell I'm going to support my family.  

    Point being simply that you're not alone, I think it's a struggle we all face because I'm coming to the realization that while we can have it all, we just can't have it all at once.  So I think you have to zoom out a little, if you can, and take a long view.  Which is far easier said than done.  

    --R

  • happy (0 / 0)

    I know you already know this (because you wrote it!), but it sounds like you have a nice option to teach part-time and of course, it sounds like you have a lovely, big happy family, which is wonderful.

    I've been home for five years and I've haven't missed my old "career" once. I had a good job in marketing, very good pay, I loved my co-workers, but I never miss it.  It did take me a while though, to get used to not having the co-workers around, but now all I see are benefits to being home.  My only frustration has been that I thought that I would be able to do a lot more things around the house, like become a good cook and decorate better and exercise more, but most days I only barely get the daily grind done.  I can't even keep up with my photo albums and I'm supposedly home all day.

    The key for me was realizing that I could, very quickly, become very miserable at this, because our society mainly defines people by what they "do," and what you "do" has to be of the paycheck variety. Whether we work outside the home for a paycheck or not, we are so much more than just what we "do."

    • I think you hit the nail on the head. (0 / 0)

      We get so many conflicting messages.  Ofcourse, when I worked for a short while after having my first three children, I got the conflicting message as well...why was I having babies if I was just "out working"?  

      I liked being at home.  As my children grew, I became involved in a lot of community and political activities  that allowed me to have the opportunity to do the kinds of things I never could have done had I been trying to hold down a job, too.  

      And then, when it became apparent I would not be able to work again, I really felt that societal thing again...only at that time, it felt more as if I'd been played and lied to and finally discarded.

      • SAHM's are (0 / 0)

        low status in our culture. That's rough on a big, social primate. We hate that.

        It's interesting, and I used to rant and rave about it, but I'm okay about it now. I think I went through a period of mourning about it when I figured it out, but now I'm done with that angst and am ready to do something about it.

        • Such as... (0 / 0)

          Just curious.

          • For me, climate change (0 / 0)

            blows all these "mommy war"/ social status/class inequity problems out of the water, and gives me perspective. If we work constructively on one thing of interest, it seems to magically fix everything else within your little realm of control (something is better, you feel better, and there is perspective and learning to energize you more).

        • Yeah, I'm over it. (0 / 0)

          However, it hit again when my kids were no longer what anyone would call "little kids"...maybe I'm paranoid, but honestly, it effects many areas of your life.  I've even noticed that a group of us get treated differently  by health care providers, school personnel, etc.  Now what I run up against is "well, its not like you have anything IMPORTANT to do"....at least there was the concession when I had younger children that they might be considered "something important to do"!

          • Yeah, it sounds like mourning to me. (0 / 0)

            From what you say, it comes in waves when you least expect it, like mourning?

            • Yes... (0 / 0)

              its what I tell people about "acceptance".  You hear a lot about "acceptance" in support groups dealing with health issues, too.  I've found that it's not something that you just get, then have forever.  You do it over, and over again.  In waves.  You're absolutely right...and sometimes it just hits you out of the blue.

    • Yes, this sounds right. (0 / 0)

      I miss the people I worked with, and the big ideas, not necessarily the work.

      My key to sanity, as NJmom has mentioned in the past, make sure you get out at least once per day: structure helps.

  • SAHM and glad I was (0 / 0)

    Yep--I had a career in a prestigious law firm in downtown Seattle and I was on the partnership track.  I was the person who developed our law firm's parental leave policy.  I was the second woman they had ever hired.

    I had every intention of going back after baby was born but I did not want to.  So many people were proud of me becoming a lawyer back in the day when it was breaking the mold so it was tough to think I was disappointing others.

    Like you, I do extrememly part time things that make the law more my hobby now. But my kids now 22 and 20 thrived with an at home parent.  This was more important than anything I ever did for clients.

  • It Feels Like A Loss Because It Is (0 / 0)

    Tenure is a very admirable accomplishment. Congrats to you for reaching that stage.

    .....

    My comments are these:
    We live in a Capitalist society and - in a capitalist society, individual self worth is tied to a career and the ability to earn money.

    Two points->

    1. Be Advised:

    Women really need to be cautious and carefully consider what they're doing when they choose economic dependency on another person or when they opt to create a situation where the economic well-being of their family is dependent upon a single source of income. Dire circumstances such as discontinuation of viable job options for the sole wage earner(temporary or long term), disability, or divorce can and do take place.

    1. Work-Life Balance:

    is quite possible with a partner or spouse who embraces his or her fair share of familial obligations. Why this escapes so many people of both genders is beyond my comprehension.

    • very supportive (0 / 0)

      What a supportive comment.

      Glad that you have fully embraced the capitalist version of what a person is worth.  Kudos to you.  

      To your point 1, being fully dependent on two incomes also carries economic liability.  See Elizabeth Warren's The Two-Income Trap for more on that.

      On your point 2, families create all different kinds of arrangements that work best for them.  A woman who stays home is not necessarily oppressed by a patriarchal husband and nor is a woman who works outside the home for a paycheck always "free," as many working mothers will gladly tell you.

      • Pls Slow Down and Consider the Message (0 / 0)

        I am neither embracing nor disavowing the Capitalist rubric for personal worth. I am simply stating it.

        There are two worlds: The World as it Should Be and The World as It Is.

        Regarding your comment about economic liability: Yes - dependence on two incomes has risk; however, dependence upon one is even more risky. It's simple mathematics.

        Regarding the second portion of your comment: My statement about a partner or spouse who embraces his or her fair share of familial obligations has nada to do with partriarchy or female "freedom". It's about shared responsibilities. (If you'd like to talk patriarchy and feminism perhaps we should start another diary.)

        Furthermore - since women continually talk about not being able to find "Work-Life Balance" and often reveal what they have to "give up" ...clearly-the "all different kinds of arrangements" that you speak of ain't working out.

        • balance (0 / 0)

            2.  Work-Life Balance:

          is quite possible with a partner or spouse who embraces his or her fair share of familial obligations. Why this escapes so many people of both genders is beyond my comprehension.

          I was responding to this part of your comment.
           
          You are correct, The World As It Should Be, isn't here yet.  Hence, all the different kinds of arrangements that families come up with that work for them in The World As It Is.  You seem to be claiming that work-life balance is possible as long as you have a spouse that "embraces his or her fair share of familial obligations."  That's it's not the world, but a crummy partner making women "give up."

          BTW, all of this assumes that I think every woman wants to work or make tenure or be CEO, and I don't think that is true.

          • Circular Reasoning and Other Forms of Non Logic.. (0 / 0)

            Your inferences about what I am saying are simply that-inferences.

            Focus on my actual claims rather than what I seem to be claiming.

            possible does not =  as long as

            and

            Work-Life Balance:

            is quite possible with a partner or spouse who embraces his or her fair share of familial obligations.

            does not =

            it's not the world, but a crummy partner making women "give up."

            It appears that you may be reading a personal message in my comments which are not really there.

            The nature of our economy puts people who rely on wages in a very precarious position because employers generally do not respect workers as persons.

            The entire system is dysfunctional. We all know it.

            The current state of things dictates that women - who are often the most financially vulnerable (adult) members of society - carefully consider decsisions which could impact financial well-being.

    • The solution is insurance (0 / 0)

      Regarding death or disability of the working spouse, this is what life and disability insurance are for. Anyone who can afford to have a spouse stay home full time can afford quite enough life and disability insurance.

      Divorce? Get a good attorney and do the best you can.

      Loss of job? Same - make a some big decisions and do the best you can.

      What I personally won't do is make big life decisions - like whether to work during my son's infancy and preschool years - based on the fear of a giant life shattering emergency happening tomorrow. That sucks as a way to live, imho.

  • I Agree-Fear is No Way to Live (0 / 0)

    The bottom line is this: A person can live in fear or they can carefully consider the What Ifs - which is all that I am suggesting. Doing the best you can includes careful consideration of all the angles.

    Another consideration is this one: Mental Health

    Clearly, many people develop mental health issues when they remove themselves from gainful employment or active intellectual pursuits (which may or may not be mutually exclusive).

    Depression for SAHMs is a real problem. I do not think that this phenomenon is an accident considering the value that our society places on education and career and $$.

    BTW-The Insurance Coverage you descibed is not an answer - it's a hold-over...like placing an ace bandage over an arterial cut.

    • Sure (0 / 0)

      Sure, depression can be a problem when society doesn't value you because you don't bring home a paycheck anymore.  

      And when so-called feminists tell you that you're stupid for staying home.

      But who knows.  I might be living under a bridge one day with all the other SAHMs.

      In the meantime, I choose to believe that all people, no matter what their employment status or net worth or educational level or tenure status or title or fame or power, have equal worth.

      • Say What?? (0 / 0)

        I personally know of no feminists who tell women they're stupid for staying home. Has this happened to you personally?

        Be honest.

        • Before kids, (0 / 0)

          I thought it. I was young and childless, with no idea what it took to raise a family.

          Honestly, my current me would like to give a good kick to the seat of the pants of my younger, less experienced me. I don't know why my mom and sisters never did it. I think that moms are just used to "eating crow" and often let it slide.

          • Never (0 / 0)

            I have never heard a person say anything like this in real life.

            From what I have experienced, many people think that a woman shold sacrifice her career for her family whereas men are expected to sacrifice their family and other personal relationships for their career. In my experience folks hardly bat an eye when either of these things happen.

            Now I have heard people talk about foolish choices in terms of picking a mate...

        • Personally (0 / 0)

          Personally, no, I have not.  People in real life tend not to say things like that to your face, can't imagine why?  : )

          Now are there so-called feminists who believe that stay-at-home moms are just stupid or uninformed regarding their choice?  Plenty of those in the media for sure.  Linda Hirshmann is their leader.

          Back to your first comment:

           

          1.  Be Advised:

          Women really need to be cautious and carefully consider what they're doing when they choose economic dependency on another person or when they opt to create a situation where the economic well-being of their family is dependent upon a single source of income. Dire circumstances such as discontinuation of viable job options for the sole wage earner(temporary or long term), disability, or divorce can and do take place.

          The error you make here (along with feminists like Hirshmann) is that you think that moms at home aren't aware of this, are in la-la land regarding the realities of the world.  Speaking for myself, and most moms at home I have met, we are fully aware of the risk.

          And yes, one day, due to my decision to leave my job and stay home and become economically dependent on one person, I could very well end up destitute, living under a bridge, abandoned, clutching my out-of-date degrees, a beggar on the street.  And again, I'm willing to take that risk, every single day.  I have no fear.  Zero.

          • I Sense That You (0 / 0)

            Are - for some reason- attempting to "prove" me "wrong". I suspect it's a carry over from our last tango in a previous diary discussion.

            The sad part about all of this is twofold:

            1. Women do not need to be each other's enemies. Because - Lord knows - we have enouogh enemies already.
            1. You clearly demonstrate your lack of rationality and you continuously contradict yourself with each new comment here.

            When I confronted you about whether you had any PERSONAL exposure to a feminist telling you that you're dumb for staying home, you admitted that you never had this happen to you. Now you're conjuring phantom media feminists who allegedly stand behind Hirshmann?

            Would these edits make you feel better?

            Be Advised:

            Women don't really need to be cautious and should not carefully consider what they're doing when they choose economic dependency on another person or when they opt to create a situation where the economic well-being of their family is dependent upon a single source of income. Dire circumstances such as discontinuation of viable job options for the sole wage earner(temporary or long term), disability, or divorce are an unlikelihood which can be managed via disability insurance and unemployment benefits if need be.

            • Listen (0 / 0)

              I'm not going to keep arguing with you Uhuru.  I've seen where discussions with you end up.  A 200 plus thread of stupid, where we are treated to an exhibition of your training in logic once in a while.

              I don't even understand what the hell you wrote in your new blockquote.

              I have said all that I wanted to say to you and you can go spin around and talk to yourself for the next four days.

              • No-YOU Listen (0 / 0)

                Don't approach me, gums cocked, looking for a debate and NOT expect to get one.

                You, madam, were indeed looking to argue with me. You presented a weak and emotional "argument" based in part upon denial and fueled by a grudge from another discussion and you were called on it.

                Case closed.

    • Co-signed ;) (0 / 0)

      I agree with you about the potential for depression, or just feeling blech all the time, if a SAHM is trying to live in a way that just doesn't fit. Check out the article by Martha Beck that karenm just posted over on the open thread.

      A minor point about insurance - it really depends on the amount, whether it's an ace bandage or a true safety net. Either way, it's just one tool to hedge against risk, as you say.

      • Networking and Volunteering? (0 / 0)

        Some of the vulnerability to depression could be mitigated by alligning onesself with other similarly situated parents and by volunteering or joining an association related to your (ex) profession, no?

    • I would guess (0 / 0)

      there's a similar risk of depression for women who go back to work but would really rather be at home with their children.  For some women, that can be a very, very strong desire/need and having it foiled by economics can feel pretty bad.

      Even in a capitalist country, there are many folks who recognize the valuable contributions of people who don't earn a paycheck.  So, while it may be true for you that

      individual self worth is tied to a career and the ability to earn money

      this is probably one of those areas where you might want to just speak for yourself.

      • And your guess would be wrong (0 / 0)

        There are no widespread reports of that nature. Ther are; however, widespread reports of depression stemming from feelings of isolation and boredom w/ SAHMs.

        Me:

        individual self worth is tied to a career and the ability to earn money

        You:

        this is probably one of those areas where you might want to just speak for yourself.

        My reply: RIF mamacita. As I stated before, I was stating society's default position - which at least three women in the discussion confirmed and the originator of this diary conirmed indirectly.

        Denial does none of us any good. Until society at large values domestic duties and child rearing, nothing will change. As long women deny that there's the general view that domestic duties and child rearing are largely UNimportant, they are fooling no one-not even themselves.

  • Hugs. Me, too (0 / 0)

    I REALLY wanted to be home with my kids their first 3 years.  Now that I've accomplished that with ROry (or will have when she starts preschool), I want to go back to work NOW!  Of course, I'm a grad student, but I'm a stay-at-home-grad-student-mother-of-two-who-never-gets-outside-and-misses-real-classes.

    ::sigh::

    A hobby with low pay.  I like that.  :)

  • thanks for the hugs, suggestions, and (0 / 0)

    willingness to relate. it sounds like many people are or were in my shoes and are/were struggling, rejoicing, surviving, and thriving.   it's good to know that i do get to feel a sense of loss and still love my kids.  if i had to chose between anything and my kids, i'd chose them.  a zillion times over.  but that doesn't make the choice is easy. i don't feel depressed, but i do feel like i am mourning the loss of part of my identity.  i have always worked towards change, and part of me feels guilty about sitting and enjoying my own fortunate, healthy kids.  i actually want to START a non-profit... if i could only decide which of the compelling issues in urban education to focus on (ideas welcome... right now i have too many, but hearing others could help).  

    today was one of those days when i was glad to be at home (yes, there are many of those).  maya and i got bagels together before her eye doctor appointment, charlie had a cold and was seriously wanting his MAMA!, the baby came home from her first ever sleep-over at nana's... leapt into my arms squealing with joy, and sammy and i sat and watched the torturous debate together.  (he was as outraged as i was... "that's not fair!  they keep asking him bad questions!").  

    the adjustment for me is in the dailiness of it all.  before, i had these full time kid days and then would have a work day.  sometimes it felt like two personalities, but i liked both of them.  now the kid days are every day, and every night... so i do more dishes, make more meals (i HATE to cook), clean up more toys, do more carpooling... all the other trimmings of modern motherhood and WAY more than i ever have before.  but yes... i get more hugs (and tantrums), hear more about what happened at school (and preschool), and see every minute of every milestone the baby reaches.  as my grandmother used to say, "other people should have such problems!"  

    this post has helped me to think "long range", which is good too.  i turn 40 this year, so i don't have five decades of work when i return.  thanks for the reminders to have a re-entry strategy.  

    • you sound really balanced (0 / 0)

      The realization that child-rearing is a phase and not a permanent lifestyle is a big one.  You'll have many years to work when they're gone.  And it sounds like you really are able to enjoy so many aspects of the lifestyle.  I think that's a form of grace.

      It seems like you really had an ideal set-up with the first 3 kids, so kudos on that.  That's quite an achievement!  And good luck finding a groove to get you through the next part of your life.  It's exciting!  Keep us posted.

    • 40 this year here, too (0 / 0)

      Happy Birthday! Personally, I'm looking forward to 40. I finally feel like I have some experience under my belt.

    • Good luck to you S-Mom (0 / 0)

      It seems like we, as females, hardle ever get to make "easy" choices-We're judged ...and then we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

      The best we can do is plan for the worst and hope for the best.

      • alternatively... (0 / 0)

        women are lucky to face these difficult decisions and must find a way to be internally at peace with what they decide.  In my experience in my workplace, men do not have the same options that women have -- they have a well traveled path they are expected to follow.  It's a huge problem.  

        Slackermom (and you are anything but), your struggle is one most mothers face and I think by addressing it outright you are permitting yourself to be happy with your explicit decision.  

        --R

        • I Don't Go for The Okey Doke (0 / 0)

          women are lucky to face these difficult decisions and must find a way to be internally at peace with what they decide.

          Having difficult decisions is "lucky" huh... How so? AND if being placed in a position where your two choices appear to be give up a successful and interesting career or be a bad parent is good luck, what- pray tell - is bad luck...LOL!

          I smell fertilzer.

          In my experience in my workplace, men do not have the same options that women have -- they have a well traveled path they are expected to follow.  It's a huge problem.

          HOW SO???

          Please elaborate.

          Rainbows and bluejays and HappyPurpleFuzzyBunnies aside - I have some critical infrastructure to sell you.

          • my, my (0 / 0)

            Your choices seem to be quite black and white.  That's not the world I live in.  I don't have a choice between giving up a successful and interesting career and being a good parent.  Instead, given a fixed number of hours in the day (and if, by critical infrastructure to sell, you mean that you've figured out a workaround for the 24 hour day then I'll gladly buy it), I can decide what I choose to spend them on.  And I will accept that someone will confront me and accuse me of completely f-ing up, but that will happen in any case.  So I make sure that I prioritize how I spend my time such that I'm happy with the trade-offs I've made.  

            And I do have to make tradeoffs, because with limitless time I'd work the 70-80 hour weeks I need to be kick-ass successful in my profession, I'd travel 2-3 days a week to my favorite clients, and I'd also be home for breakfast and dinner every day while still getting my requisite 7.5 hours of sleep a night.  Oh, and I would re-dedicate myself to my equestrian hobbies at the level I used to compete, which occupied about 20-30 hours a week.  That would rock.  

            That said, If I compare myself to generations past, where women didn't have a full range of careers open to them, then I feel like I'm pretty lucky to be where I am with trade-off options.  

            If I compare my situation and choices to those of men I work with, I know that my maternity leave was supported and expected.  No one told me it would be better for my career to take it when the baby was 6 months old (which may have been true, but was structurally impossible, clearly).  No one told me that the best way to sleep with a newborn in the house was to invent a reason for a business trip.  When I spoke to people about potential part-time programs, they came up with several ways to make it work.  When a male colleague asked about it, he found his promotion pushed back 6 months despite the fact that he never went part-time, he just asked about it.  I'd call that a huge problem, especially given that the men that continue in an environment where that is the expectation will propagate that expectation.  The men that don't like it leave.  This only makes it worse in the long run.  

            Your mileage, clearly, may vary.  

            --R

          • can i ask what you do for a living? (0 / 0)

            i seem to recall somewhere that you are married to a military member, is that correct?  If so, have you had your career challenged by his career moves?

  • i think we feel tricked (0 / 0)

    personally, I felt totally sucker-punched by motherhood. We're given the ability to be the best of what we can be, develop full careers, get used to time alone, nurture our creativity, and somehow-- from my perspective-- told none of this has to change when we have children. We Can Do It All.

    Well you know what? We can't do it all. At the pinnacle of being really effective at what we've chosen to do, we're expected to drop it all overnight. I think my own resentment comes with not feeling warned-- not being able to plan for it because nobody could be harsh enough to explain to me that I wouldn't be spending time painting or writing if I was holding down a full time job and mothering, and that even restricted to the last two I wouldn't ever feel like I was doing either well enough, and that if I wanted several children I'd probably be doing that to the exclusion of every other thing I ever wanted to do with my life. /rant.

    So yeah it's a loss. More to the point, it's totally unexpected.

    if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

    by thais on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:15:47 AM PDT

    • I Like Being Everything That I Am (0 / 0)

      I really like being everything that I am:

      I would never want to give up any of the three aspects of "me". I am a person with a career, I am a spouse, and I am a parent.

      I also have a partner who is just as interested as I am in all three of these things - plus a fourth...right now he is a student too.  

      No one is expected (or is required) to give up huge chunks of "me - ness". We juggle, we multitask, we outsource, we coorperate / pitch in and provide each other assistance / support.

      I am so sick of hearing women saying Guess What? We can't do it all. and I am sick of hearing men say it's absurd for women to expect it. I am also tired of the fact that no one is truly lobbying for the workplace to become more respectful of the fact that people actually have lives.

      • Great (0 / 0)

        Glad that you're able to do it all.  

        Perhaps my list of what I want is longer, but the fact of the matter is I can't do everything on it, I have to give things up.  Or ask others to do them.  Or pay others to do them.  Or determine that this isn't the time in my life to become an Olympic equestrian, I'll just have to do that later.  That's not the same as giving up my identity, which seems to be what you're implying.  

        You and I are 110% in agreement that the outrage should be directed at the workplace that demands everything, rather than at the people that dare to suggest that they are more than one-dimensional.  

        --R

        • Hold On (0 / 0)

          Perhaps my list of what I want is longer

          My list of what I "want" is quite long too and, since I am only thirty something-I still have quite a few things to check off...And-I am finding that as I get older; and see, experience, and know more - my list gets modified from time to time.

          Besides-there are many different "lists" in life. Right now, we are talking about homelife versus worklife / career.

          I'll just have to do that later.  That's not the same as giving up my identity, which seems to be what you're implying.

          I have implied no such thing; however, the I-gave-up-my-tenure / high-powered-career-to-be-a-SAHM crowd stated it quite plainy.

          I challenge you to provide the text where I made any inferences about identity. My comments were limitted soley to financial considerations.

          The problem with many folks - especially when discussing controversial topics or issues which affect them directly - is that they already "know" what is being said so they opt to NOT read / listen very well.

      • "No one is expected..." (0 / 0)

        No one is expected (or is required) to give up huge chunks of "me - ness". We juggle, we multitask, we outsource, we coorperate / pitch in and provide each other assistance / support.

        I think this is the ideal.  However, I would point out that it does depend on a workplace for both partners that is respectful to some degree at least of personal time and responsibilities.  You are right that American workplaces get a pass on this issue to a large degree.  I am fortunate that mine is pretty flexible.  However, my spouse's former one was extremely demanding and almost entirely unresponsive to personal needs.  If we both had a job like that there would be literally no time or ability to provide for personal life or child care.

        So the "we can't do it all" idea has a grain of truth; i.e. we can't both have 80 hour a week jobs AND also expect that we are both going to be able to spend a decent amount of time with our children AND get housework done.  One of those expectations has got to give.  I don't believe it means one partner has to give up something 100%.  But there needs to be some level of flexibility, somewhere.  If person X has a demanding job, they could of course move to a less-demanding job, but maybe the demanding one is the one they want.  They aren't "having it all" if they have to move to a job they don't necessarily want.

        And of course, yes, the answer to this is a more flexible and understanding workplace for everyone - but good luck to you in getting us there.

        • LOL! (0 / 0)

          Good luck to me?

          Ha x 2.

          I decided NOT to place myself in the situation because I will not hold my breath waiting for women to pull their collective heads out of their asses.

          Just look @ the in-fighting and lack of comprehension that took place in this thread.

          • vowed (0 / 0)

            I vowed I wouldn't write to you again, but I can't help myself.  So help me God, this will be the absolute last time.

            Your comments are so utterly insulting, disrespectful, rude, aggressive, patronizing and condescending.  I've said this to you before, and I'll say it again, I really hope that you don't go about the world like this.

            I decided NOT to place myself in the situation because I will not hold my breath waiting for women to pull their collective heads out of their asses.

            What are you talking about here? HOW DARE YOU TALK TO PEOPLE LIKE THIS?

            Oh, we need your education Uhuru!  Help us figure it out!  We're just a bunch of stupid SAHMs, moms who have struggled with work-life balance, moms who've made compromises, and moms who can see both sides, moms who realize how complex life is for all of us, in all stages. Oh, but we need you to scold us and educate us and share with us your glorious wisdom!

            You have life all figured out. I don't know anything more of you other than the total and complete garbage you write on here.  And again, all I hope, is that you don't go about in the world like this and this is just a case of the people behaving poorly on the internet.

            I can only speak for myself on this one, but as a SAHM, you have completely and totally insulted me on this thread.  You don't seem to get it.  This isn't about debating.  There's a way to debate in a civil fashion.  You don't care one drop about engaging in a thoughtful and meaningful discussion around here. This is all about you, walking around here like a bull in a china shop, flinging your words around, not giving one crap how they fall.    

            • I KNEW It (0 / 0)

              I vowed I wouldn't write to you again, but I can't help myself.

              I knew full well that you would not be able to resist.

              So help me God, this will be the absolute last time.

              Calling on The Lord are we? LOL-I don't expect that you'll be able to keep your word this time either.

              HOW DARE YOU TALK TO PEOPLE LIKE THIS?

              Are you, Internet Gangsta, aware that caps = yelling?

              Your comments are so utterly insulting, disrespectful, rude, aggressive, patronizing and condescending.

              I completely disagree. I believe they're humorously insightful, rational, tantalizing, tittilating, and thought-provoking....But that's just how I roll.

              I've said this to you before, and I'll say it again, I really hope that you don't go about the world like this.

              Stop repeating yourself; it's boring.

              I can only speak for myself on this one,

              That's a safe bet.

              but as a SAHM, you have completely and totally insulted me on this thread.  


              *All jokes aside:
              Perhaps you need to examine why that is.

              I mean, really - What have I said here to actually insult anyone?

              My observations were about the negative view that society in general holds towards working and non-working mothers, as well as what is traditionally considered to be women's work. I commented about carefully considering the opportunity costs of not being gainfully employed and not continuously working on a career within the context of a Capitalist society where the general consensus is If you ain't contributing to GDP then you ain't nobody and where most employers are not inclined to recognize that employees actually have lives.

              Maybe you are smarting from reading my words because you are not OK with your choice.

              Or...

              Perhaps you cannot read my words objectively because you are still pissed off from the last time we verbally dueled-and I was victorious. Tee. Hee.

              You don't seem to get it.  

              This isn't about debating.  There's a way to debate in a civil fashion.  You don't care one drop about engaging in a thoughtful and meaningful discussion around here.

              If meaningful discussion with NJMom means that I am required to agree and coddle and soothe  without sharing what I really think or feel - then ...Naw-I ain't interested in discussing nada with NJMom.

          • what infighting? (0 / 0)

            I hadn't seen it.

            • I think she's referring (0 / 0)

              to the exchanges she's had with several posters.

            • Infighting Demo (0 / 0)

              Women are indeed in-fighters.  

              The exchanges on thsi blog are negligible.

              In real life, women who stay at home judge those who don't.... and those who work outside the home assume those that don't are lazy / uneducated.

              • oh please speak for yourself (0 / 0)

                I don't fight with anyone in my life.

              • Fascinating (0 / 0)

                In real life, women who stay at home judge those who don't.... and those who work outside the home assume those that don't are lazy / uneducated.

                This is so interesting to me, because the only place I've seen that kind of judging is on the Internet.  The women I know in real life are understanding of each other's choices.  I've never heard people I know use the kinds of words you're using here (lazy ... uneducated ... judging those who don't work).

                You might want to consider speaking for yourself.

                • Yeah, I really never heard it. (0 / 0)

                  Ofcourse, I'm probably older than most here, but when our kids were all small, most of the mothers I know just commiserated with each other...working mothers AND stay at home mothers.

                  That said, my mother did tell me of an extended family incident that nearly turned into a "mommy war".  My cousin's son and daughter in law are expecting a baby...their fifth.  She stays at home.  Fine.  Some of the women in my family have, or do, stay home with children, others have worked outside the home.  However, my mother got really a bit ticked by the self righteous tone the cousin's wife used about staying home...said something to the effect that "I would NEVER leave my children to go back to work...my kids aren't going to be latchkey kids".  Somewhat impolitic for her to say in a room of family members who had made various decisions on that matter.  

                  • Exactly (0 / 0)

                    This kind of tale is precisely what I am talking about.

                    Usually it's the SAHMs bashing working moms with this one which you provided via your mom:

                    "I would NEVER leave my children to go back to work...my kids aren't going to be latchkey kids".

                     

                    • To be fair, however, (0 / 0)

                      as a woman who is at home, I will say that I'm finding there is a certain amount of discrimination on that score, too.  Its not said aloud  many times, but there's that unspoken assumption that you don't really "do" anything....ofcourse, this is coming from such a capitalist aspect of our society that I suppose it isn't surprising.  We measure everything in terms of "production".

                      • Alert! (0 / 0)

                        Be careful, tjb!
                        You don't want to be perceived as adopting that stance because you're mentioning it.

                        ((wink))

                        Yes, many people - that's MEN and WOMEN -assume that SAHMs do nada all dayum day. Or-they assume they're not engaged in "real" work.

                    • In my experience (0 / 0)

                      In my experience, the way it comes out when a WOHM disses (for lack of a better word ... I'm running out the door) me as a SAHM is excluding me from the conversation or not wanting to talk to me when she finds out I stay home. This has happened to me, I don't know, maybe half a dozen times, so that I tend to believe it's a real phenom, ie. it's not subtle. I don't get the same freeze out from SAHMs.

                      But it's never happened directly to my face with words.

                      But everybody else's mileage may vary. I live in a workaholic area.

                  • I've definitely heard comments like that (0 / 0)

                    I've heard comments like that, and so have my friends. Sometimes it's other SAHMs saying that to me, thinking I agree that working is not good for kids. But given all my interaction with other mothers every day, it's really rare.

                    It goes the other way, too. My friend who works two days a week was at the park recently, and a WOHM was there with her kid because it was spring break. She said to my friend, "I could never live this way." And it wasn't because she was admiring my friend, let's put it that way. So rude, right in a total stranger's face. But again, very rare.

                • We All Have Our Experiences. (0 / 0)

                  Case in point:

                  Certain folks hear phantom media lesbians.

                  I have sensed and heard the judgement aplenty in real life.

                • I stay at home (0 / 0)

                  I don't judge those who don't. sometimes I envy, but I don't judge. Of course, as a WAHM, maybe I'm just in a weird place.

          • yeah, would you look at that: (0 / 0)

            Just look @ the in-fighting and lack of comprehension that took place in this thread.

            Uhura, you might find it instructional to peruse a few threads here on MT that you haven't participated in.  You will find them refreshingly free of malice and nasty conflict.  No, we don't always agree, but we are almost always respectful and even affectionate towards one another.  We care about each other, and we get that there's no one right way to do life.  Even if we haven't experienced something "personally" we understand that it still might be true for someone else.  

            I'm not sure you are capable of the level of discourse that we normally engage in here.  It seems like your m.o. is "gotcha," and that doesn't really move discussions forward in a useful way.  

            Also, what does "RIF mamacita" mean?  Is that some kind of obscure Trekkie curse?

            -- A charter member of the Pretty Party  

            • yay! The Pretty Party! (0 / 0)

              when's our first meeting!?  ;-)

            • RIF-Reading is Fundamental (0 / 0)

              http://www.rif.org/...

              Uhura, you might find it instructional to peruse a few threads here on MT that you haven't participated in.  You will find them refreshingly free of malice and nasty conflict.

              Don't you mean the threads that NJMom has not followed me into...dragging her negative baggage and attacking me for my opinions?

              • no, I don't (0 / 0)

                NJMom is a reasoned, empathetic, and valuable commenter.  Don't flatter yourself into thinking she's "following" you.  

                Oh, and the idea that you bested her in previous jousts?  Dream. On.  You seriously lack self-awareness if that is your take-home message.  But that doesn't surprise me, as you continue to descrbie your contributions as

                humorously insightful, rational, tantalizing, tittilating, and thought-provoking

                when in fact they are hostile, vulgar, and the antithesis of dialogue.

                I challenge you to locate a thread that meets your definition of "in-fighting."  I also challenge you to re-think your notion that all women in-fight.  That may be the world you're living in but, thankfully, my address is quite distant from that.

                • Ew-You made a Funny! (0 / 0)

                  NJMom is a reasoned, empathetic, and valuable commenter.  Don't flatter yourself into thinking she's "following" you.

                  What else should it be called when she enters the thread and hardly bats an eye at anyone else?

                  I don't find e-stalking to be flattering.

                  Oh, and the idea that you bested her in previous jousts?  Dream. On.  You seriously lack self-awareness if that is your take-home message.

                  Oh - I reach REM sleep on the regular; however, I know full friggin' well that I did best her.

                  That's.
                  precisely.
                  why.
                  she.
                  is.
                  bitter.

                  But that doesn't surprise me, as you continue to descrbie your contributions as

                  humorously insightful, rational, tantalizing, tittilating, and thought-provoking

                  when in fact they are hostile, vulgar, and the antithesis of dialogue.

                  Hey-Potato Potatoe

                  I challenge you to locate a thread that meets your definition of "in-fighting."  I also challenge you to re-think your notion that all women in-fight.  That may be the world you're living in but, thankfully, my address is quite distant from that.

                  Sure it is-which is why you joined the Rescue Party here.

                • walk away, ladies (0 / 0)

                  Mamacita, this is why I think there's really no point in criticising Uhura.  She clearly believes that her posts are respectful, intelligent, insightful and humorous.  It doesn't really matter whether this is true or not; despite her baiting tone, she appears quite genuine in her high opinion of her posts.  So every response to the contrary becomes nothing more than another opportunity for her to display more of her "wit".

                  Remember the central rule of parenting: pick your battles.  

      • I don't think anyone can do it ALL (0 / 0)

        man or woman.  Nor honestly do I think anyone should feel like they have to -- nor honestly do I feel that doing it ALL is remotely a healthy way to live.  I'm the biggest proponent for letting things slide that you either can't or don't want to fit in in the quest to do it all -- My utter lack of love for anythign resembling a domestic art is well catalogued here (the no cooking, the cobwebs, the time Kelly and Liza wrote 'we love mommy in the dust on my tv")  I don't volunteer at Liza's school b/c I'd rather rip my eyelashes out - but I do volunteer sometimes from time to time when I can and when the cause is important. I excercise....enough.... I'm chubby.  I watch way too much reality TV (OMG "Step it Up and Dance?"  Brilliant)  and i do a reasonably good job at a job I love in a profession I've been in for nearly 20 years now.  I'm 42.  I don't care if I can do it all.  I don't WANT to do it all.   Just like only a minute percentage of a percentage of women will ever be supermodels the same holds true for how many really really REALLLY do it all.  I ain't no super model and I've NEVER been no super woman.  

        so if you're a mom and you want to work work! If you want to stay home stay home!  The answer I believe lies in not worrying about whether the baseboards ever get dusted   ;-)