Mother Talkers

Autism, Vaccines, and an Underlying Disorder

Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:07:47 AM PDT

The debate on whether vaccines have a role in autism is being resurrected by a case where a Georgia girl developed autism after her 18 month round of vaccines in July of 2000.  Apparently, the girl had an underlying mitochondrial disorder and after her shots, she ended up displaying autism-like symptoms.  Her parents will be paid from the vaccine injury fund.  However, the federal government released this statement:

The government "has not conceded that vaccines cause autism," said Linda Renzi, the lawyer representing federal officials, who have consistently maintained that childhood shots are safe.

I have to admit... I’ve been leery of vaccines since my first was an infant.  I waited until he was almost 7 months for his first shot.  I’m not anti-vaccine, but I am fearful of any side effects.   Even know, I hold my breath for days after my kids get their shots.  Right now, I’m getting my 5 year old daughter caught up before kindergarten in the fall.  

I have quite a few friends who refuse to vaccinate their children.  They are skeptical because of stories about how children were fine, developing normally, had their vaccinations, and then started displaying autism-like symptoms.  I don’t blame these people for connecting the dots the way they did.  And then Robert F. Kennedy’s article came out in Rolling Stone in 2005, furthering the debate on the link between autism and vaccines.  

Recently, there have been studies that have come out stating that there’s no evidence of a link between vaccines and autism.  This has raised my comfort level about vaccines.  And I know there are other factors that can be attributed to the rise in autism, such as better diagnosis.  

Right now, there’s no scientific evidence of a link between the mitochondrial disorder and autism.  However:

A Portuguese study suggested that 7 percent of autistic children might also have the mitochondrial disorder, versus one in 5,000 people -- or 0.02 percent -- in the general population, said Dr. Marvin Natowicz, a Cleveland Clinic geneticist.
"Even if they're off by a factor of seven" and only 1 percent are afflicted, "it's still a striking statistic," he said.

Jon and Terry Poling will be on Larry King tonight at 9:00pm to discuss all of this.  I’m interested to hear more about the possible link of an underlying disorder and autism when vaccines are administered.

Tags: vaccines, autism, Robert F. Kennedy, Jon and Terry Poling, mitochondrial disorder (all tags)

Permalink | 43 comments

  • reminder (0 / 0)

    Thanks for the reminder, I wanted to catch this LK.    I hope it's more balanced than the last one they had one with the celebrities like Toni Braxton.

    • I missed that one (0 / 0)

      Is she anti-vax?  

      "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

      by 1plain1peanut on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:22:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • remember (0 / 0)

        You know, I can't remember specifically, but it was a small panel of parents, celebrity and non-celeb, and the general gist was that the vaxes were involved, but I can't remember who specifically said what.  

        But I remember there was no balance at all regarding the vax issue.

        • Blame Autism Speaks. (0 / 0)

          At least that's what I've heard. Autism Speaks are enormously well funded, and one of the groups that still strongly buys into the vaccine connection. I've heard allegations (unsubstantiated, so take them as you will) that one of their board members, Mel Karmazin, is well connected enough in media circles that he manages a shutout of any opposing viewpoints. It certainly looks that way when you see the coverage, and he has the experience to match the allegations - former President and COO of Viacom, former President and CEO of CBS, former President and CEO of Infinity Broadcasting, and current CEO of SIRIUS Satellite Radio. Very, very well connected group, ludicrously well funded, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they can make the right calls to keep the media "on message."

          "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

          by Expat Briton on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:18:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  • thimerosol (0 / 0)

    Wasn't the link supposedly with the thimerosol that was used as a preservative in the past in large dose vials of vaccines?  And haven't they stopped using thimerosol?

    I don't think anyone should avoid vaccination nowadays.  I'm not convinced of the connection between thimerosol and autism either, but even if that connection does exist, with the thimerosol acting as a trigger, it is a thing of the past.

    • I think so (0 / 0)

      I think thimerosol has been eliminated from most childhood vaccines.  However, I guess it's still in some flu vaccines.

      "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

      by 1plain1peanut on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:01:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Not always (0 / 0)

      Thimerosol in vaccines has been linked to autism.  Thimersol has also been removed from many vaccines.

      However, the MMR vaccine has been linked to autism, even though the MMR has NEVER contained thimerosol.  The mechanism there is thought to be related to an underlying gut problem, and some children who developed autism symptoms after receiving the MMR improved after eliminating gluten and casein from their diets.

      • I'm not aware that the scientific evidence (0 / 0)

        supports any causality link between either thimerosol or MMR, though both have been hypothesized and studied.

      • But the study that made that connection has been. (0 / 0)

        ..discredited. I mean, completely destroyed. All but one of the scientists who worked on it have disowned the study, as has the Lancet, who published it. While I'm not sure of precisely where the thermisol issue originally came from, it always felt like it was just another incarnation of the Zombie Lie that Will Not Die on vaccines. Sweden, for instance, never allowed thermisol, and yet their autism rates have climbed like everyone else's.

        "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

        by Expat Briton on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:22:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • That's interesting.. (0 / 0)

          Sweden, for instance, never allowed thermisol, and yet their autism rates have climbed like everyone else's.

          Do you have a link for that?  I've never heard that before.  If that's the case then the whole theory of thermisol and autism is pretty much blown.

          "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

          by 1plain1peanut on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:48:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • I found this (0 / 0)

            http://www.i4ph.org/...

            The incidence of autism in the U.S., Sweden and Denmark began to rise in 1985, with a peak of reported cases in the early 1990s. In Denmark, for example, the annual number of autism cases rose from less than 10 among 2 to 10 year olds before 1990 to 181 in 1999. However, thimerosal in Sweden and Denmark was low in the late 1980s and after 1993 none of their vaccines contained thimerosal. The opposite happened in the United States, where the average amount of thimerosal received from vaccines increased throughout the 1990s. The researchers concluded that the available data, including the evidence from their study, “are not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines are responsible for the apparent increases in the rates of autism in young children being observed worldwide.”

          • thimerosol has been out of (0 / 0)

            vaxes since 2001, yet the rate continues to climb.

            A 2008 research study article from the Archives of General Psychiatry describing no decrease in autism despite the exclusion of more than trace amounts of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines.

            I don't have a link to this article since I'm not a subscriber.  Researchers have consistently reported that there is no link.  This connection has been pretty thoroughly debunked.  

      • MMR vaccine (0 / 0)

        The problem with skipping the MMR vaccine is that if your kid gets rubella (AKA German measles), which is fairly common and not that serious, then your kid hangs around me (a pregnant woman who has received the MMR vaccine), my unborn child can contract rubella, which has serious, life-altering consequences, such as mental retardation, when contracted in utero. So even though I was vaccinated, your decision not to vaccinate your kid can potentially seriously harm mine. But some people think it's OK as long as it's not their kid.

        I'm speaking in the hypothetical "you," of course. I have no idea whether you vaccinated or not, I just find this a very interesting scenario that I became aware of after my son had a rubella scare this winter.

        • And measles can be dangerous to kids (0 / 0)

          DH's best friend is a doctor, and he told us that measles can be deadly, especially since what's out there now is what has lived through the great vaccination generation (probably most of us as children).  So as bad as autism is, it probably won't kill.

        • I have an old friend (0 / 0)

          ...who had rubella while pregnant.  The child was born with all sorts of problems---brain damage and physical issues.  He was confined to wheel chair.  Not good.

          I had measles as a child in the days before MMR and I still remember how sick I was.

        • I did vaccinate my kids for MMR (0 / 0)

          although somewhat later than the schedule suggested.  

          And when I said the MMR or thimerosol has been linked to austism, I meant it broadly as in linked by certain scientists, parents, the media, etc.  I am aware that the primary MMR study has been debunked.  I just wanted to point out that people trying to identify a  link between vaccines and autism aren't JUST talking about thimerosol.  

        • Okay... (0 / 0)

          Maybe the measles shot should be separated out of the MMR and given as one of the first vaccinations?  Or, is the reason they wait until after the first year because an infant's system can't handle it yet?  I guess I'm just thinking that if measles is a huge risk to pregnant women, and as others have stated below a real health risk to kids, then maybe it needs to be moved up in the vaccination schedule?

          "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

          by 1plain1peanut on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:35:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Not measles, (0 / 0)

            rubella. German measles. Oddly, though (regular) measles is the more serious disease, it does not pose the same risk as German measles to fetuses.

            As a (somewhat) interesting aside, I was properly vaccinated for MMR but the vaccine they used in my area at the time was too weak. So there ended up being a measles epidemic when I was in high school, and I actually caught the measles. So I am thoroughly immune now! Measles is kind of a sucky illness for a high schooler but it would be really scary if I were a little kid- my fever was nearly 105.

            • Oh, that's right... (0 / 0)

              It's Rubella that causes issues with pregnant women... I knew that.  I remember after a blood test while pregnant I found out I was not immune to it, so after I had Grant I ended up getting an MMR.  I felt lousy for a few days after it... but then again, who feels great right after they have a baby?

              I had mumps when I was a toddler.  I have no memory of it, but my mother has photos of my brother and I smiling with these huge round necks.  

              "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

              by 1plain1peanut on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 06:05:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  • There was a blog post on this (0 / 0)

    over at Huffington Post that got everyone all excited. Personally, I don't find that it's especially compelling.

    I don't understand exactly the argument here:

    The child in this case had several markers for Mt disease, which was confirmed by muscle biopsy. Mt disease is often marked by lethargy, poor muscle tone, poor food digestion and bowel problems, something found in many children diagnosed with autism.

    But mitochondrial disorders are rare in the general population, affecting some 2-per-10,000 people (or just 0.2%). So with 4,900 cases filed in Vaccine Court, this case should be the one and only, extremely rare instance of Mt disease in all the autism proceedings.

    But it is not.

    Mitochondrial disorders are now thought to be the most common disease associated with ASD. Some journal articles and other analyses have estimated that 10% to 20% of all autism cases may involve mitochondrial disorders, which would make them one thousand times more common among people with ASD than the general population.

    Another article, published in the Journal of Child Neurology and co-authored by Dr. Zimmerman, showed that 38% of Kennedy Krieger Institute autism patients studied had one marker for impaired oxidative phosphorylation, and 47% had a second marker.

    The authors -- who reported on a case-study of the same autism claim conceded in Vaccine Court -- noted that "children who have (mitochondrial-related) dysfunctional cellular energy metabolism might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18 and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same time."

    An interesting aspect of Mt disease in autism is that, with ASD, the mitochondrial disease seems to be milder than in "classic" cases of Mt disorder. In fact, classic Mt disease is almost always inherited, either passed down by the mother through mitochondrial DNA, or by both parents through nuclear DNA.

    In autism-related Mt disease, however, the disorder is not typically found in other family members, and instead appears to be largely of the sporadic variety, which may now account for 75% of all mitochondrial disorders.

    Meanwhile, an informal survey of seven families of children with cases currently pending in Vaccine Court revealed that all seven showed markers for mitochondrial dysfunction, dating back to their earliest medical tests. The facts in all seven claims mirror the case just conceded by the government: Normal development followed by vaccination, immediate illness, and rapid decline culminating in an autism diagnosis.

    As I read it, the Mt disease is associated with autism. So, yes, you'd expect that among kids who have autism, that a larger percentage than the normal population have the Mt disease. This isn't surprising; it's a tautology. As I read it, they're not saying the vaccine caused the Mt disease, but the child already had it.

    So what would be needed is the study showing that among kids with Mt disease, that those vaccinated have a higher rate of autism than those not  vaccinated.

    I'm not really seeing how this is evidence that vaccines are the culprit. It looks to me like the evidence presented suggests that Mt disease is the culprit, or otherwise associated - ie, genetic changes that predated vaccination.

    And then when I've looked further, I found:

    Mitochondrial dysfunction in autism spectrum disorders: a population-based study (Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology, 2005) (pdf)
    This is a small study, showing an abnormal number of mitochondrial dysfunction - but even though they felt it was unusually high, still only 7.2% of the autistic kids had that diagnosis. It might be a clue, but it doesn't explain the data.

    Mitochondiral DNA Abnormalities and Autistic Spectrum Disorders(Journal of Pediatrics, 2004) (pdf)

    There are other papers going back further.

    This is the link of the government's concession (ya gotta love an official document addressed to "Special Masters"!
    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/... (pdf)

    When I read this language, it's possible that what's happening is that the legal team has chosen to settle this case because it was one of three chosen to be a precedent, and because settling the case takes it out of that group. That's not the same as saying "Mitochondrial disorder + vaccine = autism" by any stretch.

    This isn't the smoking gun for autism - but it's an interesting clue. I want to see the study of kids with Mt, vaccinated and unvaccinated, with autism rates.

    Finally, the mechanism suggested in THIS 'vaccines might cause autism!' spree is the immune response - in which case, one might wonder why you'd blame vaccinations and not the flu, an RSV virus, or all the other wonderful nasties in our environment that our body works to fight off with the exact same immune response.

    I looked all over the internet, and David Kirby's blog article at Huffington Post is the only source I could find for this assertion.

    • I think Kirby is the driving force... (0 / 0)

      in this becoming a news story (note that the decision came down Nov. 9, but only after Kirby sounded off at HuffPo the other day did the mainstream media pick it up.  The blogosphere works both for ill and for good, I guess...

      For an interesting rebuttal to Kirby, check out Orec, blogging at Respectful Insolence.

      One point Orec makes is that the burden of proof is SO low in a vaccine-harm case.  It's not "medical certainty," it's not even "beyond a reasonable doubt," it's "better than even odds."  In other words, if your case is credible enough that there's a better than 50/50 chance that the vaccine caused harm, you win the case.

      I personally will eat my hat if vaccines were the cause of my own daughter's autism!!

      (OK, I've got quite the opinion here.  But that's what blogs are for, eh?)

    • he literally wrote the book (0 / 0)

      Kirby is not an unbiased blogger here - this is his whole livelihood - he wrote the book that first got really broad national attention to the vaccine camp.

    • Big Red Flag here (0 / 0)

      An interesting aspect of Mt disease in autism is that, with ASD, the mitochondrial disease seems to be milder than in "classic" cases of Mt disorder.

      One of the most common flaws in epidemiologic studies is called information bias, and one very common form of information bias comes up when the diseased population is tested more thoroughly than the healthy comparison population.  You cannot compare two groups unless you are very certain you looking at a healthy but otherwise comparable population in exactly the same way.  Information bias can completely invalidate a study, and the description above is exactly what they teach you to look out for in intro epidemiology class.

      What this article tells me is that if you start with an actual diagnosis of mitochondrial disease (and since it is inherited it would be frequently diagnosed in infants), you probably do not see elevated rates of autism.  But if you start with autism, you pick up minor mitochondrial disorders (I can't even figure out if it's actual disease) that would not otherwise be detected, because nobody was looking for it.  So no conclusion can be drawn from the apparent association.

  • My toxicologist husband (0 / 0)

    doesn't think there is a connection between vaccinations and autism.  He has been very open minded and has listened to groups of concerned parents.  He doesn't think the science supports it.

    It is scary.  Our daughter had a bad reaction to her first pertusis vaccine.  But she recovered fine.  So she wasn't protected against pertussis.

    • my son (0 / 0)

      had terrible seizures as a reaction to Pertusis.

      this was after me deferring his vaccines until he was 18 months old. imagine my horror after having deferred, to have that happen.

      while i have not ever felt that vaccines cause autism, i certainly do am NOT going to let people tell me that i must blindly trust my government OR the pharma industry with my child's life. i research everything and never did like the idea of putting multiple diseases into my child starting at 2 months of age. i wanted him to be older and robust and i wanted to know him and his personality.

      his first round was fine. his second around the doc was pressuring me to give him both DPT and MMR at the same time. i refused, as those two are the most highly reactive. one nurse at an emergency room visit for an unrelated illness even called social services on me for following my own gut on when to vaccinate my child.

      and then, when i finally let him have one of the big ones, DPT, he had seizures - first, febrile ones, then more, FOUR days later, with no fever present.

      so i yanked him back off all vaccines for another couple of years. he is finally getting caught up on everything to get ready for kindergarten, but interestingly enough - he does not have to have a lot of them now, because he is past the age of concern? i am not sure i understand it all, the scheduling.

      this is one of those fine line things as parents. you want to protect your child and the greater public with the medical advancements we have in the form of vaccines. but you also get treated like an idiot for asking questions, get poo-poo'd and treated as an alarmist when you are hesitant to just follow some rule book by rote.

      ...and then you have complete horror that the bad crap happened anyway, no matter how hard you tried and fought. and the suck feeling of your child going through hell ending up being a validation of your gut the whole time.

      We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. - E.R. Murrow

      by lorin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:49:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • jesus christ (0 / 0)

        what a horrible experience, Lorin.

      • Wow (0 / 0)

        That's awful.  I'm sorry to hear about your experience and I totally don't blame you for deferring on the vaccines when you did.  I am with you on not blindly trusting the pharama industry and government.  That's why I think that it's so important that we, as parents, are the best advocate for our children.  

        "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

        by 1plain1peanut on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 07:24:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • This is terrible, lorin (0 / 0)

        Aside from autism, some kids have reactions or side effects to vaccines.

        Our daughter went limp and white like a rag doll and scared teh bejeebers out of us.  Our doctor put a big red flag on her records so after that she only received DT instead of DPT.  I guess her reaction was a known side effect in a small number of babies.

        Interestingly, when she was in elementary school, I believe she got pertussis as it was going around our county.  And I got it from her because I was an older Mom and my vaccines from childhood had likely worn off.  We were coughing our guts out for a month.

        But my husband who is a pharmacologist/toxicologist does not believe autism is caused by vaccines and does not think people should forego vaccines.

        Of course, if there is a reaction like lorin's child or my child then the child should not be given any more.

        But yea--it is scary and you do not know if your child may be the rare one that has a reaction.

  • maybe it's other stuff in the vaccines? (0 / 0)

    There are lots of additives in vaccines other than thermisol, combined that with the fact that kids now adays get more vaccines during each wellness visit.....it makes me wonder.  I don't know whether or not vaccines cause autism, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.  Though at the same time the idea that high-risk people (pregnant women, siblings of children who are in daycare) could get infected from unvaccinated children is kind of scary.  I think there has to be a balance somewhere.  And I wish they would do studies on the effect of the other additives in vaccines....

    • the vaccines are meant (0 / 0)

      to prevent some very scary diseases.  Every doc I know thinks it's crazy to "play it safe" by not protecting your child from gruesome forms of death (not to get too graphic!).

      We've talked here before about how the people who choose not to vaccinate their children are really reaping the benefits from those of us who do vaccinate, which makes an outbreak of a deadly disease less likely.  So the risk is transferred, some would say unfairly.

      • More than that, (0 / 0)

        "Herd immunity," is a really important part of the overall picture. For some people, vaccines just aren't effective. There's no way of knowing who (well, there is, we could test everyone, but we don't because it's easier to just vaccinate everyone), but it doesn't matter because in theory, everyone gets their kids vaccinated, and so there's no one to infect the kids whose vaccines didn't take. It's one of the reasons I have little patience with the anti-vaccine crowd. If you live in the middle of nowhere and your children have no contact with any other children, fine, don't vaccinate your kids if you don't want to. But assuming you don't live in a vacuum, I don't think you have the right to put other children at risk. We all live as part of a society, and that means our actions affect others.

        "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

        by Expat Briton on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:48:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I have huge concerns about this (0 / 0)

          We're a family that travels and moves around an awful lot; DH and I have lived in four countries over the past decade, Jess was born in London and now lives in Melbourne, and we have taken trips to places like Thailand and back to the US to see my folks. We also live in an area with high migration influx. Ergo, it's absolutely imperative IMHO that Jess be fully immunised. I have to say that I'm glad that I live in a country where it's extremely hard for parents to have their kids opt-out of vaccination regimes; there's a lot of paperwork to get through if you don't want to vaccinate and you want your child to go to school.

    • but why the vaccines, particularly? (0 / 0)

      Individual components of the vaccines probably aren't being tested further because we've massively tested entire vaccine formulations.  If the vaccine doesn't test positive, it's ingredients won't test positive either.  

      But there are so many things in an infant's environment we've never tested.  Maybe one environmental trigger - assuming there are some - is exposure to an ingredient found in certain brands of hand lotion.  Or perfume.  Or furniture polish.  How about the flame retardant treatment on sleepwear, or stain resistant carpeting?  Sunscreen?  Or perhaps prenatal exposure to a dye found in certain brands of lipstick.  And everybody's worried about pthallates and other plastics these days, so let's include that as well.

      Of course it could still be something in the natural environment - autism rates are climbing, but it's not a new disease.  Maybe an allergic reaction to a species of mold, or a common and otherwise harmless virus.  Or a microbe.  Or (in light of the hygene hypothesis) the absence of a microbe that would help the immune system develop better.  

      Then there's the usual dietary suspects.  Low omega 3 levels, artificial sweeteners, grain-fed beef, etc.  Exposure could be prenatal or via breastmilk.  Though to be fair we should also consider the ingredients in infant formula.  Or maybe it's just the stimuli our infants are exposed to in the modern world that affects the way their brains develop.  

      I imagine there's probably evidence for or against a bunch of these random ideas.  My point is that the list is nearly infinite, and we have more data on vaccines than anything else.  Huge numbers of researchers have spent years or decades on the vaccine hypothesis, and most have moved on - failure is a real career killer.  

      • Well, (0 / 0)

        The stories I read and hear about kids who have had reactions to vaccines, seem to have the reaction shortly after receiving the vaccines.  

        Yes, it could be a multitude of things in the environment that end up causing autism.  But what about the Polings for example, who said that their daughter had her reaction right after receiving her vaccines.   They said she had a high fever, was arching her back and crying and then slowly became less and less responsive from there?  I guess that's why they think the vaccine was the catalyst... because of the timing of the symptoms.  From what I hear, that's what other parents say happened to their kids too.  

        For me the question is, why these kids and not every child who gets vaccinated?  I'm no doctor or scientist... just a mom who's trying to figure all of this out.

        "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

        by 1plain1peanut on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:31:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • for every child who "turned" autistic (0 / 0)

          right after the 18 month vaccinations, there's a child who "turned" autistic at exactly the same time, but didn't get the vaccine.  

          This is often a case where correlation really, really isn't causation.  The natural course of regressive autism means that it kicks in pretty abruptly and can seem like something caused it, when it would have kicked in anyway.

          If you're really trying to figure it out, check out the CDC website.  They have a lot of reliable information.  Anecdotal anti-vax stories are often powerful but not really meaningful.

  • Did anyone catch the show last night? (0 / 0)

    I thought it was done very well and balanced.   The Polings talked about their case and then were careful to state that they still believed that vaccinations were important.  I found that very interesting, considering what happened to them.

    Any other thoughts?

    "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

    by 1plain1peanut on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:38:58 PM PDT

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