Mother Talkers

Kindergartener Learns About Mean People Online

by AnnieJo

Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 10:44:46 AM PDT

A Cautionary tale for everyone. Thank you for the diary, AnnieJo, and welcome! -Elisa

A cautionary tale of the Internet for the little tykes...

My older daughter, aged 6 and a precocious reader, has a list of web-game "Favorites" that she's allowed to play online.  The list is heavy on Playhouse Disney, PBS Kids, Starfall, Poisson Rouge and the like.  But we did have one on the list that wasn't explictly a kids' game -- a really cool make-your-own-snowflake site. She had done a lot of snowflake cutting in the real world this winter, and the snowflake site virtually "folded the paper" for you and then let you "cut" areas out by dragging with the mouse. You then release your creation into a snowy scene along with all the snowflakes created by other users, and can attach little comments to other people's snowflakes, or read what they have to say about yours.

Personally I had kind of ignored the message feature, since I had no interest in using it myself, but my daughter noticed the option and asked about it. So I sat down with her, created a snowflake, and let her post me a note. Then I posted a note to her most recent snowflake, and we went to read it together.

Then I noticed that she had received another message on that snowflake! How cool, a random compliment, right?

Except when I opened the message, the first words were "You suck."  She was easily able to read that much before I could shut the message down. (The rest of the message: "Go take your talentless self and rot in the hole you came from! I'm waaaay better than you!  Even my mutt is better than you!  Geez!"  A nasty bucketload of tear-down meanness.  Fortunately all she saw was the first two words, but that was plenty.)

Poor sweetie, it really made a big impression on her.  Why would that person say that?  Was my snowflake really so bad?  Etc., etc.

And of course her snowflake was lovely!  She's actually got quite the knack of it, for a kindergartener.  Sigh.

Random meanness from an online stranger is a different situation than if a playmate had said it to her face.  On the playground, you can confront the person, tell them "That's not a nice thing to say, and it really hurt my feelings!"  But with a nameless faceless online tormentor, engaging is a bad idea.  Not only does it give them extra jollies, it gives them the chance to bash you again, or maybe even encourages them to up the ante.  Anyway, in this case, I don't think it was even possible to respond.

I guess we're lucky that the first encounter was so benign.  She gets to learn the lesson on just a meanie, rather than a pervert. But it could easily have gone a different way.

For me, the particularly sobering part of this lesson is: I was right there.  We were doing it right, with full supervision.  And the meanie got through anyway, and hurt my daughter (feelings only, though the tragic Megan Meier situation was also essentially about hurt feelings...)

For discussion: At what age is it appropriate to allow ANY online contact with strangers?  After all, the snowflake messaging thing seemed so harmless, and yet random kooks can hang out just about anywhere.  I bet my daughter has it in her to be a heckuva blogger someday, or whatever else has replaced blogging by then, but what's the progression between here and there?

By the way, this is my first diary here, though I've commented on and off.  I have two daughters, the aforementioned sensitive academically-oriented six-year-old, and an affectionate three-year-old who is strong as a horse, can run like the wind, and struggles with epilepsy and autism.  Never a dull moment!

Tags: online safety (all tags)

Permalink | 17 comments

  • Ooo, promoted... what a nice surprise! (0 / 0)

    Thanks for the welcome, Elisa!

    by AnnieJo on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 10:55:48 AM PDT

  • What is WRONG with people???? (0 / 0)

    How horrible!  I haven't had to cross that bridge yet, but it's right around the corner, and I'm interested in seeing what others have to say.  But I'm frequently shocked at the vitriol directed to young children online.  I've seen book reviews on early chapter books clearly written by kids completely ripped apart by adults who didn't like the children's opinions.  Truthfully, I didn't think their reviews had a lot reasonable criticisms either, but kudos to those kids for reading the book, forming an opinion and voicing it in an appropriate forum.  

    by K C on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:11:56 AM PDT

    • How sad about the book reviews. (0 / 0)

      It's even worse when it's obvious that the target is a kid.  In our case I don't think the meanie could tell -- it felt more random than that.  But still, that didn't make my sweetie feel any better.

      Once a kiddo can read for her/himself, it's a whole new ballgame.  I'm obviously not quite ready!

      by AnnieJo on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:44:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • That's so sad about the comments (0 / 0)

    It's so unnecessary to leave messages like that.  The sick puppies are probably laughing and they'll never know or care about the aftermath.  Kinda like a prank phone call but worse.

    I remember when we were showing our kids some cute videos on YouTube (this was when we discovered the Potter Puppet Pals) and we scrolled down to see some of the comments people had left.  It's fine to show my kids the videos I have screened, but I certainly don't want them reading some of those comments.  Blech.

    Think there may be a little more of this than there used to be?

    scha·den·freu·de      [shahd-n-froi-duh]  –noun
    satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.

    by MsMarvel on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:32:21 AM PDT

    • Hmm, good point about the YouTube comments. (0 / 0)

      We need to start monitoring that too, because we've definitely shown her some YouTube videos!

      Is the difference between "schadenfreude" and "sadism" whether or not the individual feeling the the pleasure is the same one who caused the misfortune?  I'm afraid that the anonymity of the Internet probably lends itself to both.

      by AnnieJo on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:05:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Oh, yeah, shadenfreude (0 / 0)

        can be completely hands-off.  Like giggling when someone sees someone else trip on the curb.  Or a sister snickering when her brother gets chewed out by their parents.

        So the snowflake creep is a sadist except he or she will never know if the intended recipient ever saw the comments.  It's pleasure derived from the perceived sadness of the recipient.

        Do people who toss their chewing gum in a parking lot on a hot day derive pleasure from their bad deed?  I always call up Karma in those situations.  

        by MsMarvel on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:38:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • youtube videos and comments (0 / 0)

      We began selecting a few videos on youtube for our daughter but wanted a central location to "keep" them that excluded comments (she's barely three so right now our interests aren't about reading anything but about clarity and simplicity of design, less visual distractions, etc).  I just imbedded the videos we really like in a blog, and that's really been perfect for us.  March was a month of birthdays and travel so no posting since our first round in Feb, but this gives you an idea of what can be done with wordpress or blogger to take what's great about youtube and trim out the excess.

      Rainy Day Videos

      by Shelby on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 01:04:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • That's awful. (0 / 0)

    (but I have to admit I had a hard time not writing "You Suck!" as my comment because I'm just such a troublemaker  :) )

    There have been a few articles I've read recently about the anonymity of the internet making people into complete dicksmacks.  That being able to say anything and not having to face the consequences is generally bringing out the worst in people.   It's awful when it's between adults but when it's obviously hurtful to a child then it's really bad.

    My kids are 10, 7 and 4 and so far do not go on any sites where they can chat with others.  I know that it won't be long until they're out there but it's taken me a long time to build up a thick skin to comments so I'm very hesitant to let them out into the vitual world.   Give your daughter a big hug from the MTs.  

    "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. Gotta kick at the darkness til it bleeds daylight"

    by lonestar canuck on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:36:12 AM PDT

    • LOL! (0 / 0)

      Thanks for letting your better angels rescue you from your first comment thought!

      Yeah, I have trouble with a thin skin myself.  It stinks that it's the people who care who get hurt.  And I agree about the anonymity factor.

      It's funny, when we let her start cutting virtual snowflakes, I wasn't thinking of it as a "chat" site by any means.  Web 2.0 is so pervasive these days, though.

      Thanks for the hug!

      by AnnieJo on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:09:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • Miles's blog (0 / 0)

    My biggest concern with Miles starting a blog was interacting with random people. So, I set it up that I had to moderate all comments.  That seems to be working out alright. I've only had to delete a few spam-like comments to this point, everyone else has been highly respectful.

    Sorry for your bumpy entry into the nastiness of anonymous on-line morons.

    Miles and His Favorites: The World As Seen By a Seven Year Old

    by Hillary on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:53:33 AM PDT

    • Good point about moderating. (0 / 0)

      It's a pity with the snowflakes that even if I had read the comment first, there'd have been no way to delete it.

      I'm just going to have to be more careful about sneaky comment-exchange features.  It's so pervasive these days!

      Thanks for the empathy (Mitgefühl, since Schadenfreude was mentioned above!)

      by AnnieJo on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:14:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • It seems like they should moderate (0 / 0)

        the snowflake comments.  

        by lonespark on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:23:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Here's their statement on that: (0 / 0)

          Popular Front is not responsible for the views or ideas posted on this site unless they're really witty, exceptionally charming, or universally liked.

          In other words, you're on your own.

          I would have liked a feature that would let you either choose not to receive comments, or be able to delete.  I doubt there's any effort being put into upgrading though.

          Another caution at that site: when I went to look to get their statement right, I saw an odd-looking snowflake go by.  Just one simple elongated shape cut out of it, wonder what that was all about?  Then I saw that the artist had signed the snowflake "PEN IS" and realized what the shape was supposed to be...

          by AnnieJo on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:47:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  • Just an example of (0 / 0)

    John Gabriel's Greater Internet F#&@wad Theory.  Basically, the internet makes people @$$holes.

    What do you mean, uh-oh? baby pictures

    by round peg inna square hole on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:28:45 PM PDT

  • Sad, but glad you were there (0 / 0)

    Hi AnnieJo and welcome (from another newbie).

    Everyone's "first awful moment on the internet" comes sometime, alas, and it's just good that you were there. In other words, right now this stuff is inevitable, and it's good that you ARE doing everything right.

    My DSD had all her first awful moments on Neopets. First she told her best friend her password, and her bf's brother got ahold of it and took all her pets and points. A few months later she responded to a message claiming to be from tech support and lost all her pets and points AGAIN. And then the site was hacked and redirected to a porn site, so they had to go to the triple screen login procedure. She went through a phase of being super aggressive in reporting bad behaviour, and is now a very savvy net user who helps her friends with problems.

    I think the classic "second awful moment on the internet" is when people you already KNOW use the internet to be mean. Let's not talk about that further heartbreak now.

    On the net and in life, when we CARE, people who DON'T CARE can try to use our caring against us...easier to tear down than build. Which is why the CARErs have to be smart and tough, like you. * more applause *

    In terms of "contributions from creeps", I think the way Wikipedia does it, robustly and positively, is worth learning from. Lest I paint DSD as a saintly teenager (as she would say, she is SO NOT), her school's IP address is blocked from editing Wikipedia, ever, and she made some random edits from home as well, which got our home address warned. The tone of the message was just perfect, and the punishment fit the crime.

    by madwoman in the attic on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:03:54 PM PDT

Permalink | 17 comments