Mother Talkers

Can Faith Healing Be Child Neglect?

by MrsPastor

Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:35:52 PM PDT

Crossposted at Street Prophets

This sad story  was reported by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel yesterday.

Madeline Kara Neumann died of diabetic ketoacidosis, a treatable though serious condition of type 1 diabetes in which acid builds up in the blood.

Neumann's parents said they didn't know she had diabetes. They didn't take her to a doctor. They prayed for healing.

According to the article, Madeline's parents did not know she was sick. It was reported that she had been seen around town and appeared to be a healthy 11-year old.  Her parents are known in the community and the police chief noted that "they are not crazy people."  That they were unaware she was sick contrasts with the medical examiner's opinion that the young girl would have been showing symptoms for the past 6 months.

A follow up article printed today indicates that the parents prayed with David Eells from Unleavened Bread Ministries even as they were following the ambulance to the hospital.  In a statement released on their website, Eells defends his actions, saying:

We do not dictate to people about whether to go to the doctor or not but agree with their faith as the Bible says:  {Matthew 18:19} Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.  We are not commanded in scripture to send people to the doctor but to meet their needs through prayer and faith.  As anyone here in the ministry will tell you, we are not against doctors for those who have their faith there and never condemn or restrict them in any way.  But we know that the best one to trust in for healing is Jesus Christ.

Obviously, it is the intersection of freedom to practice religion and child welfare that gets out attention when something like this happens.  The case is being investigated by the local police as well as the Marathon County Department of Social Services.  There is no easy answer here, with even the law providing conflicting information, according to the newspaper article.

Under Wisconsin statutes, parents can't be accused of abuse or neglect if the sole reason for the injury is that they relied on prayer, Fost said. But Robyn S. Shapiro, an attorney who is professor of bioethics and director of the Bioethics Center at the Medical College of Wisconsin, said abuse or neglect can include "failure to appropriately respond or supply medical care to your kid."

So, is the failure of the parents to get their child medical attention fast enough neglect on their part?  As a person of faith as well as a child welfare professional, I know there are no easy answers.  What I do know for sure is that Madeline and her family need our prayers now just as much as they did on Easter Sunday.

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Do you think Madeline's parents were neglectful?

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Tags: faith healing, prayer, child neglect (all tags)

Permalink | 45 comments

  • This story just makes me so sad (0 / 0)

    I can't imagine what the parents are going through right now.  The pain of losing a child, the knowledge that her condition was treatable, the investigation and the possibility of losing your other children.  

    The child welfare professional in me says they should have known their child was sick and acted sooner.  The mother in me just can't condemn them.  I would hate to be an investigator in this case.

    Jen

    by MrsPastor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:42:14 PM PDT

  • It's very difficult. (0 / 0)

    In many ways, its another one of those "slippery slopes".  While I can't imagine letting a child get sick enough to die without getting help, that doesn't mean that I would want my right to parent the way I see fit interferred with, either.  I suppose I recall other cases in which I think the state overstepped...religion wasn't involved, but parental rights were.  One was the case in which the family decided to discontinue a certain chemotherapy regimen.  The other was the case in which the mother was charged for refusing a c-section.  

    by tjb22 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:19:04 PM PDT

  • A really hard case. The parents are in their own (0 / 0)

    private hell. And what purpose will prosecution serve?

    I'm Roman Catholic and there is a Latin phrase that translates to roughly: "Pray as if all depended on prayer, and work as if all depended on work." Good advice.

    by mercedes99 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:34:28 PM PDT

  • Wisconsin statute (0 / 0)

    parents can't be accused of abuse or neglect if the sole reason for the injury is that they relied on prayer

    I find this really bizarre.  So, let's take an injury example.  A child cuts his hand on a broken window and is spurting blood.  According to the state it's perfectly fine for his parents to pray for him to recover rather than taking him to the ER for stitches?

    I have to say I disagree.  Would it be ok for them to pray for food rather than feeding the child?  I don't see any difference there.  Medical care can be just as immediate of a physical need as food, and in this case the child died.

    Katherine

    by pat of butter in a sea of grits on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:44:55 PM PDT

    • Huh (0 / 0)

      Praying for food would be ridiculous.  Very good point.  Sort of like the joke about the man drowning in a flood who keeps turning down help because "God will save me."  When he dies, God points out that he sent a truck, a plane and a helicopter.  What else did our hero want him to do?

      by Erin on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:21:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Reading your post (0 / 0)

      makes me feel it's bizarre as well.  I was thinking also that children are not property of their parents, that they too have rights even though their voices can't be heard in the same way or with the same power as adults......I think that religion should not trump needed medical care in the face of this kind of situation and with regard to minor children.

      karen

      by karen m on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:45:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • DH was raised Christian Scientist (0 / 0)

    and even though he doesn't practice anymore, the impact of those teachings reaches all over our lives.  I struggle with his hypochondria (because he spent years wondering if he was sick and needed to pray for healing) and his disbelief that medicine will help when he's really sick (even though he won't admit it, he claims that even tylenol doesn't help a fever when he's sick) resulting in much longer illnesses because he won't take the meds prescribed- and lots more doctor's visits because he's always sure he's got something.  I get frustrated with his parents (neither of whom practiced the religion much at the time of our marriage) because they never seemed to really understand the damage they did.

    But for these parents?  No good could come from further prosecution- they're already in hell.

    by Laura on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:06:21 PM PDT

    • Good perspective (0 / 0)

      I sympathize with these parents and would not want to see them prosecution.  But how do we find a balance between parents' rights and kids' rights?  

      It's important to hear the long term effects this kind of upbring can have on a person.  I had never heard that before.  I have never considered that these children might wonder if they are sick and have no way of knowing.  I also wish that sometimes parents of adult children would simply acknowledge that they did wrong, and that if they could do it over they would.  I think it would go a long way toward healing.

      by Erin on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:20:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • Didn't read the linked stories... (0 / 0)

    but I don't think there's enough information in this post about symptoms or any other third party observations to really attack the parents.  My five year old has a SCARY high threshold for pain, and is incredibly independent.  We've had situations before where we didn't realize there was a problem until it was pretty serious.  When he doesn't feel good, he usually just asks to go to bed early and we check on him a bit and assume he'll feel better in the morning.  I can totally see where a gradual appearance of symptoms in a child who behaves like my son does could slip by unnoticed.

    by K C on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:45:19 PM PDT

    • The information conflicts (0 / 0)

      I can't help but think there is a big piece missing, which will be revealed in the days and weeks to come.

      The parents say they did not realize how sick she was.  I can totally see that, as I have made the same mistake with my own health.  Community members note that the girl was seen around town and at various events over the summer and seemed ok.  However, the medical examiner's report indicated that she was severely ill and would have been for the past 6 months.   That information just does not add up to me - hence my belief that something is missing.

      Jen

      by MrsPastor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:51:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • I did go back and read the articles... (0 / 0)

        and I agree, it's pretty weird.  But then again, the symptoms they listed were being very thirsty, using the bathroom frequently, and dry skin.  Depending on how severe all of those were, for what length of time she was symptomatic, and how observant the parents are...  I'm not really defending them exactly, just saying that my five year old gets himself water when he's thirsty, uses the bathroom without my noticing most of the time, and has very dry skin all winter just because he has dry skin all winter... all of those would have to be VERY extreme for it to really stand out to me.

        by K C on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:38:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • I'm with you - full story not out (0 / 0)

        the parents must have known something was wrong if they were praying for healing, but what did they know, did they see a doctor about this and what was the doctor doing about this?

        So sad and yeah, it raises so many uncomfortable questions.

        by Rachel on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:45:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • OK, I'm odd person out on this (0 / 0)

    I don't feel sorry for the parents.  They knew she was ill.  If not, then why were they praying for healing?  Just a standard prayer?  They prayed that for everyone?

    I don't buy their BS.  Everyone feels so sorry for them.  What good would putting them in jail do?  How about saving anyone else they may cause to die?  I hope their other kids are immediately taken away from them, and kept there.  (And, as a mother, I know that, if they are telling the truth, and they really DIDN'T know the child had a medical condition, that is, in some ways, worse.)  Either way, they should NOT be in charge of children.

    They don't belong in jail?  Do 3/4 of others in jail?  Who feels for them?  (I live in CA and get crazy mad at the number of convicts there for victimless crimes.)

    Although I am not religious, I am hands off on religion EXCEPT when it effects others -- like your children.  Then, I say, "There is NO freedom of religion."  It is like "Your right to swing your fist stops at my jawline."

    by Shell on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:21:00 PM PDT

    • I think they are guilty (0 / 0)

      and should be punished.  I wouldn't presume to know what sentence would be appropriate, especially since we don't know the details of the crime.

      I am wary of medicine being forced on people, generally, because of the slippery slope.  I guess the best way to deal with that is to make sure public health measures and laws have tons of review and oversight.

      I am also incredibly wary of legislating religious practice "in the best interest of the children."  It's a few steps from  there to giving custody to the non-Wiccan parent, taking kids out of homes because their parents practice animal sacrifice.  They seem like clear steps, though, if we keep the focus on the child's health.

      by lonespark on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:30:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • this was my thought too.. (0 / 0)

      the fact that the parents were praying for the chlld to get better is a significant piece of this story.  i am with all above who feel a child's rights must come first.  i also agree that punishment should be leveled from a legal perspective.  

      the first responsibility of any civil society is to protect, particularly children. it matters not how much these parents are mourning, they didn't do the one thing in my view that a parent must do above all else...protect their child.  society must enforce that and to me a prison sentence signals the appropriate response back to all.

      by parentalunit1 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:06:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • timing (0 / 0)

      They started praying for her the day before she died.  This sounds like the kind of condition that takes a while to build up, like several months.  So when they became aware of it, they prayed.  The next day they prayed while they were following an emergency vehicle with their daughter in it.

      It sounds like they did not withhold medical care once they recognized the severity of her condition.

      by mamacita on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:55:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • symptoms of juvenile diabetes (0 / 0)

    i just did a quick google search to see what the girl's symptoms might have been. the site i looked at said frequent urination, extreme thirst, weight loss, nausea, fatigue, irritation, and a few others.

    i don't know how extreme these would be, but it seems like parents of an 11-year old girl might miss some of these signs. i agree that if they were praying for her clearly they knew something was up, but perhaps they thought she had something less serious.

    according to kidshealth.org, "About 25% of children have already progressed to diabetic ketoacidosis by the time they first see the doctor. Because these children may vomit and complain of abdominal pain, their symptoms can be mistaken for the flu or appendicitis."

    by Stacey on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:01:59 PM PDT

    • Interesting (0 / 0)

      When my DH's son was in his twenties, he experienced symptoms that concerned him enough to seek medical care, but was told he had the flu more than once over the course of a couple of days.  He  sought emergency care at a hospital after a couple of days of being sick, thinking that what he was being told couldn't be correct.

      It turned out that by the time he was seen at the emergency level and correctly diagnosed he was on the edge of a diabetic coma.   He was extremely close to dying.

      karen

      by karen m on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:02:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • I think what is missed here .... (0 / 0)

    ... is the DUTY of parents.  As a parent, your first duty is to protect your child.  And if they THOUGHT it was appendicitis, what then?  Let her appendix burst?  Would that have been better?

    Other relatives were notifying  authorities, yet the PARENTS didn't know?  Oh, they just knew the day before she died.  As I said before, that is a lie.

    I realize most here are parents, but this is a time when parents' rights come after the child's rights.  If there is a slippery slope, so be it.  Fight each battle as it comes.  I will never give up on the children because the government MIGHT try to take away my rights later.

    Yeah, I am still mad.  And I hope these parents have all the time in the world now to practice their religion -- WITHOUT INNOCENT CHILDREN in their home.

    by Shell on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:15:04 AM PDT

  • Neglectful (0 / 0)

    I say that they were neglectful and should be punished.

    From the article, it seems another relative called the police to go to the house.  The parents never did:

    Vergin said the relative notified authorities "that the child was ill, and due to religious reasons the family would not take the child to the hospital."

    Officers were dispatched to the home, and a second call - this time from the family's residence - was placed to 911, Vergin said. The caller said the girl was not breathing and did not have a pulse, Vergin said...

    "The mother and father were praying over her at that time," Vergin said.

    by NJmom on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 07:14:34 AM PDT

  • Maybe this is the other slippery slope (0 / 0)

    I totally get the slippery slope idea about our civil rights, etc. expressed above. On the other hand,  maybe this is the other slippery slope - people being irrationally mistrustful of doctors and science (doesn't matter why, imo), way way down the slope from reasonably skeptical or just well informed. A kid died.

    Personally, I am in the camp that children have the right to medical care, regardless of their parents religious or other anti-medicine beliefs. As expressed upthread, I happen to strongly agree that children are not the property of parents.

    I think punishment via due process is appropriate.

    I am most sad for the other kids, who have traumatically lost their sister, whose faith in their parents care and their own safety may well be shaken, and who may lose their parents temporarily if they have to go to jail.

    by RachelD on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 08:46:24 AM PDT

  • God helps those who help themselves, idiots! (0 / 0)

    Parents like these need to be charged with negligent homicide, and when they go to trial they can reject the help of a lawyer and pray for God's representation, and when they go to prison, they can promptly sit down in their cell and pray to God to release them from their unjust bondage.

    Were talking idiots here, who need to take their belief in God more literally, like when they're standing in the street and they see a car coming, they should just stand there and pray for God to save them, or when they're hungry, instead of going to get some food, they can pray for God to fill their bellies, and when they have to defecate, they can pray for God to remove the feces from their bowels.  If you're a literal believer in God, then you don't have to do anything, God will do it all for you, right?  I hope and pray that such people will take their faith more seriously, so that we can decrease the surplus population of morons like these.

    This is why societies should require people to get a license from the state before they can procreate, and prove that you have the common sense necessary to be entrusted with the well-being of a child.  I have no doubt that this couple doesn't believe in abortion, but what they ended up doing is aborting their child by default when they allowed her to die of neglect brought about by their willful negligence.

    I'm also sure that they'll be eager to pump out a replacement for the child that God took from them, and let that one die in much the same way, should they require medical assistance.

    Lock them up and throw away the key as warning to all other morons who hold up God as an excuse when they kill their child.

    And to those who make excuses and want to forgive these parents and let them go on killing their children, I wonder what you would say if it was your child they let die, somehow I don't think you'd be so forgiving.

    by Aaron on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:24:13 PM PDT

    • Wow, loaded rant! (0 / 0)

      n/t

      by GiGi on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:06:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • yes,unfiltered... (0 / 0)

        and not of MT culture...however i understand the fury and raw outrage of letting a child die in this way, if indeed it turns out this is what happened.  the name calling and over the top statements are unfiltered, yet he did name it imo at the end.  if it was our child that somehow was left in their care...who among us would be so reasoned?

        by parentalunit1 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:19:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I understand ... (0 / 0)

          ... his not living up to the "MT culture."  When I first came here, I didn't understand it either, and was used to DailyKos, and other websites.  It just takes a while to get used to things.

          But this story DID make me boiling mad, too.  I had to re-write my posts to make them tamer.  hahaha

          by Shell on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 11:26:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    • Got me thinking (0 / 0)

      I'm wondering if my own desire to be non-judgmental goes a little too far when a child ends up dead.  While I still don't see the value in sending these people to prison (keep in mind, there are a lot of people I don't want to see in prison), you also make a good point.  

      And, while it's true that it's not really mothertalkers culture, I got a chuckle out of this:

      I hope and pray that such people will take their faith more seriously, so that we can decrease the surplus population of morons like these.

      by Erin on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:40:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • To me .... (0 / 0)

        ... the main reason of sending them to prison would be for them not to be able to do this to their other children.  There are other alternatives, like putting the children with relatives, but the bottom line is they don't seem to be willing to do anything different, and that is not acceptable.

        Just yesterday, I watched a TV show about Andrea Yeager, the very smart woman who ended up killing her 5 children.  (She was, obviously, very mentally ill.)  Out of spite?  No, religion again.  She was trying to save them from hell.  (After taking up with a religious nutcase.)

        As I said before, religion is fine except when it causes pain/death to others -- including your own children.

        by Shell on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 11:36:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Legally (0 / 0)

          keeping in mind that I have no expertise in this area at all, I wonder if taking responsibility and admitting that they would do things differently if they could would hurt them?  

          Is it Andrea Yeager or Yeates?  Or are there two of them (heaven forbid)?  At any rate, it was her mental illness...no, my thoughts are spinning and I may have changed my mind mid-sentence.  Most of me feels that it was her mental illness and not her religion that drove her to do what she did.  But looking back on my work with the very mentally ill, you may have a very good point that mixing a lot of religion with a lot of mental illness only makes things much, much worse.  What came first?  With Andrea Yeates, she was very religious all along, if I remember correctly.  Would her mental illness not have taken such a horrific turn if she wasn't so religious?  I think you may have a point--she and her children might have been just a little better off.

          by Erin on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:06:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Yes, you are correct (0 / 0)

            Her last name is YATES.  (I looked it up.)  Who knows how accurate these biographies are, but in the one I saw, it said she became mentally ill in late adolescence.  But she always had to be perfect -- was valedictorian of her high school class, zipped through college.  But she never had a date until she graduated college.

            What this show said was that she never really contradicted her husband, and she was trained to be a nurse, and wanted to go back to work after her first child was born, but he said no.  Not like he ORDERED it, but his word was final.  She was said to be the type that always took the opinion of the last person to talk to her.  Despite his having a good job, they lived in a very small trailer for years, even with 4 children.  Finally, her mother-in-law told the husband to get her into a proper home.  He did.  Didn't last long though.  She had a long history of mental illness and the resulting drugs, when she went off birth control, and got pregnant with her 5th child.  My question is:  where was her husband all this time?  It seems he never thought too much of anything.  But that might just be my judgmentalism.  In any case, with 4 children, and a long history of mental illness (and psychotropic drugs), she should have been sterilized.  To my way of thinking.

            by Shell on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:09:04 PM PDT

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            • From how I remember it (0 / 0)

              hubby was a jerk.  I feel for him, because obviously the way things turned out for him were horrific, but I think he even said that he would probably remarry and have more children?  I've only read what most people have read, but I think I remember that she didn't want more children, her doctors strongly cautioned against it, and even their religious leader said they shouldn't.  It was only him who kept insisting, despite the fact that it was obvious that things were getting worse and worse.  Her postpartum psychosis got worse with each child, just as everyone involved predicted it would.

              Sterilized?  I don't know; I guess if she wanted.  I also wouldn't object if Mr. Yates had himself done.

              by Erin on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:10:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    • odd post (0 / 0)

      I assume the author is new here?

      by lyn on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 11:05:47 AM PDT

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      • Nope (0 / 0)

        He's here every once in a while - you can look up his (or any other user's) previous comments by clicking the username and then following the link; and you can see (by hovering the mouse over his username and checking the info-bar at the bottom of your window his user ID (uid) is somewhere in the sixhundreds; I think MT has something like 1350 regitered users now.

        Aaron's comments tend to strike a different tone than most here. I'm not sure what brings him here.

        by SwissClogs on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:20:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Oh my, (0 / 0)

    I can remember 41 years ago an incident that took place with a Christian Scientist family that allowed their daughter to die from a burst appendix. The incident is seared into memory because we were living in the former parsonage of the church.

    My feelings haven't changed in the ensuing decades. The parents no doubt are devastated, but that doesn't excuse the criminal negligence involved.

     When people have chosen to align with a cultist religious sect and the direct result of their inaction is the death of a child, then the hit is on them.

     Religious freedom is fine and dandy, but we need to acknowledge that segments of our society are unfit to be trusted with the care and nurture of a child. This falls within that definition.

    by a small quiet voice on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:45:01 PM PDT

  • let's leave it to the judicial system (0 / 0)

    This is why we have courts and judges.  Not everything is so black and white; some cases have conditions and circumstances that no legislature can foresee.  It takes wisdom to make the punishment fit the crime.

    This is why I oppose mandatory minimums and other forms of automatic sentencing.  It seems to me that these parents have already received the maximum sentence and a message has been sent - over-reliance on prayer can kill your child.  But I don't have all the relevant facts.

    by lyn on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:37:44 PM PDT

  • If my child were sick (0 / 0)

    I wouldn't rule out any potential treatment to make him better. I don't dig on chiropractors or herbal remedies for the most part, nor do I pray an awful lot, but if my kid were sick I'd try anything. I don't know how a parent could say, well, geez, let's only try prayer and if that doesn't work, it's her turn to die. That's sounds cruel and crazy.

    by minnmom on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:02:45 AM PDT

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