Mother Talkers

You've changed

Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:40:41 AM PDT

I have a sister who is 2 1/2 years older than me.  When I was born, she thought Mom gave birth to me just for her.  So started the die-cast dynamic between us.  I bonded with her, even tighter than Mom.  She has always led the dance between the two of us.  A typical Alpha personality.  I idolized her for the longest time,
even though everything was on her terms.

In our early twenties, both of us started on roads to self-destruction that were paralleled, but customized for our individual tastes.  We found that as years went on, that we were usually at similar places in our lives.  We never had a problem relating to each other. Until....
Well, in our late 20's/early 30's, my sister kept on her path of self-destruction.  She may even have some sort of genetic bi-polar disease that's gone unchecked because she doesn't think drugs help her (not prescribed ones at least).  She's big into self-medicating.  She had a marraige that ended in scandal and heartbreak, she has been behaving irresponsibly to say the least.
I, on the other hand, got married, started saving money and working toward a house, and grew out of the self-destruction.  And then the real fork in our paralleled roads: I had children.
All mothers that I have talked to, experienced a profound change within themselves as soon as thier first baby was born.  A shift in priorities.  A deeper understanding of everything.  A visceral and spiritual relationship with life.  I suddenly found all of my past destructive behavior to be careless, stupid and full of regret.
My sister did not and does not understand this shift in me, and feels like I "diminish" her ever since I became a mother.  She feels the need to trump me in front of my kids, tells them not to listen to me, gets bossy with them and dismisses anything I say about it.  Basiically, continuing the old dynamic between us, where she is in charge.  When I do say something to her, she gets defensive and says "I guess all of us little childless people don't understand".
She always wanted kids, but since her marraige was doomed for failure since the beginning, she never had them with her husband.  I think she carries a chip on her shoulder because I have been able to, and my marraige is doing very well.
She won't admit to this, however, and just blames everything on me being on my "high horse".
We are not talking now because last time I saw her, she had a head cold, and I asked her very politely not to kiss on the kids.  She said "No-it's fine" and kissed all over them anyway.  Needless to say I was up for 5 nights in a row bulbing noses and comforting sore babies.  I confronted her about it, and now she won't talk to me.
What's up, MT-ers?  Anyone have experience with motherhood changing your relationship with someone FOR THE WORSE?
Jeesh.

Tags: motherhood, changes (all tags)

Permalink | 51 comments

  • Symptom of a Bigger Problem (0 / 0)

    I think that the dynamic between you and your sister is one that would exist whether or not you had a child.

    Per the parameters and standard operating procedures of your relationship, you are not supposed to be able to achieve anything she has not.

    As a side note:

    As far as the "profound change" you described... I feel a little strange saying this-but I did not experience any "profound change".

    • times of change (0 / 0)

      As far as the "profound change" you described... I feel a little strange saying this-but I did not experience any "profound change".

      Nor I.  But I had my first when I was 40.  I do remember many of my friends, both male and female, going through a major change in our mid/late 20s.  I imagine if I'd had my kids in my late 20s the amount of change all at once would have been overwhelming.  But I was single at the time, so I just called it growing up - moving from youthful freedom to true adulthood.  It sounds like smuchie's sister never made that transition at all.

      • ooooh, I did (0 / 0)

        But I was in my late 20s, so there ya go. Interesting thought, that it wasn't Katrina/motherhood but just Time. I think of it as a loss of innocence.

        if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

        by thais on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:45:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Yikes. (0 / 0)

    Yikes.  That's too bad.  

    I think all relationships can change once one person has kids (or both), but it doesn't mean that they have to end, as long as both parties are willing to work on them and keep them up.

    Sorry to hear about these troubles with your sister.  I don't have any siblings, so I can't relate.  I imagine with family it's hard to just cut ties.  I think I would minimize contact though for a while as best as I could.

    Hang in there.

  • Its always difficult... (0 / 0)

    when you have a realtionship that is based on one thing that becomes inappropriate for your situation. I remember one of my best single girlfriends, we had really bonded over dating terrible and inappropriate men. When I settled down with Lee i continued to keep up with her and we'd talk about our lives, she w/ the bad guys and me with hubby.

    One day she said to me, very acidly, "We don't all have perfect little relationships with out perfect little boyfriends!"

    I really searched my heart to see if I was bragging, but really I just wasn't complaining anymore and she could not related to that.

    Obvs, you're big sister is very reluctant to relinquish her role and that transition sucks, but it would have happened w/ or w/out kids because you were already moving on, you know?

  • Oh yeah... (0 / 0)

    in fact I am dealing with a situation related to my sister today. Thanks for the diary, Smuchie!

    I want to echo someone above that I don't think this has to with your decision to have children. Like your sister, my sister -- who is a year younger than me --wants marriage and children, too. But I think there is a much deeper issue with us: We have made very different decisions at critical points of our lives. She is still involved with some self-destructive behavior, and like you, for the longest time I felt guilty about my own achievements.

    Today, I was firm with her. I told her it is never too late to turn her life around; that she could use the bad situation she is in now to create a life plan for herself. But I refused to apologize for being in the place that I am now -- or, this was really hard -- bail her out.

    Also, she plans to seek treatment for, among other things, depression. I am wondering if you can encourage your sister to do the same as there seems to be deeper issues here. You should not apologize for having a family -- as I do not see them as part of the problem!

    Glad I am not alone on this...

  • I have tried (0 / 0)

    being supportive in whatever she wanted to do in handling her depression.
    I didn't want to be pushy, or sound "high horsy" as someone who does not suffer from it.
    I know it goes deeper, it's just the kid situation that is bringing it all to the surface.  
    My refusal to let her boss me around when it comes to my kids has led to our dynamic shifting.  I think it's really uncomfortable for her.
    And although we've been close, she has always felt a need to compete with me.
    It doesn't help matters that since I've had kids, my relationship with my parents has changed and gotten stronger.
    She can't stand that.  
    She complains that when we are at thier house, it's the "Watch Smuchie and hubby raise her kids show".

    • Wow... (0 / 0)

      I feel for you Smuchie. This all sounds too familiar -- and painful.

      I just never mention my family to my sister. I just listen to her and keep in mind that she is not well and doesn't really mean the hurtful comments. Your steadfast emotional support is so important.

  • I hope I've changed (0 / 0)

    How could I not? It would seem quite strange not to change.

    I think some painful shifts in relationships happen to everyone. Some people "need" their friends and family members to be a certain way and stay that way, oftentimes to shore up their own sense of superiority. I gave two friends the boot because of their behavior when I got married, and one friend the boot recently over her inappropriate (and frankly sad) lecturing me about how to be a mother. Two of these were old friends - 20 and 30 year plus friendships!! - but I found myself deeply over their .... stuff. I cared not a whit about why they behaved the way they did - and that is a huge shift in me, partly due to being a mother.

    OTOH, I don't personally believe stuff like:

    A deeper understanding of everything.  A visceral and spiritual relationship with life.

    That does sound a bit high horsey. It's kind of hard to see how this doesn't diminish people who don't have kids. And kind of hard to square with the reality of a huge diversity of people who are mothers.

    • yeah, let me say that differently (0 / 0)

      I didn't mean that to sound exclusive or anything.
      I just meant to say, that in my experience, and some mothers I have talked to, that having children was what helped to reach these personal milestones.
      That's not to say that they cannot be achieved by other means.
      I was just illustrating the big shift that I myself felt that my sister refuses to recognize.
      I have felt visceral and spiritual and profoundly connected through music, and art, and nature and just by being.
      I guess having kids for me was just a big whammy that sustains through everyday. It's the kick in the ass I myself needed to stop floating through life, so to speak.
      Not trying to be ham and cheezy.

      • I agree (0 / 0)

        I was going to clollege and working, but not hard and not in all the places I needed to be) before kids.  Now, I can rev myself up to do things or them (getting in shape so I'll live longer, wearing my goddamn seatbelt, etc).  And unlike most mountain-top experiences, the kids are still there Monday morning, to keep you working.

      • Ahem (0 / 0)

        I think that a person should reach this level of maturity BEFORE electing to become a parent.

        But that's just how I roll.

        • in a perfect world (0 / 0)

          sure.

          I will say I considered myself quite mature pre-parenthood. Even as a kid I was quite the old soul.

          But once she came along, I DID change. I did grow and mature and evolve. I thought I was ready...but you can never be sure until that child is in your arms.

          • Oh Yeah-You Can Be Sure... (0 / 0)

            Learning from the experience of being a parent is one thing; however, being a parent does not miraculously and magically transform a man or woman into a "mature adult".

            Sorry-That stuff only happens on Lifetime Television movies.

            • Change (0 / 0)

              by learning from your experiencese of being a parent IS what the discussion is about. No one spoke of a "magical" transformation.

              Parenthood DOES change you in obvious and also not-so-obvious ways.

              • Um....Did You NOT Notice (0 / 0)

                Um...Perhaps you did not notice the following portion of the piece:

                ....A visceral and spiritual relationship with life....

                Definitely a Lifetime Televisionesque construct.

                • Um... (0 / 0)

                  visceral and spiritual DO NOT equal "magical".

                  • You Gots to Be Kiddin' (0 / 0)

                    You must be joking.

                    Another respondent already labelled the statement as "high horsery".

                    And rightly so.

                    • Hey, man! (0 / 0)

                      I only said that because that was the language in the original post! And it was a comment between me and the original poster, which, you'll see upon careful reading of my comment that I was agreeing/sharing that relationships changed pretty radically for me, too. Please don't quote me out of context - ouch.

                      • I'd like to know (0 / 0)

                        how visceral and spiritual got reduced to being catch words for Lifetime movies. "Spiritual"=vaseline lenses, Judith Light, and International Coffee?
                        And why it is so offensive all of a sudden to say that parenthood shifted one's priorities and perspectives?
                        I'd love to say that I was always completely confident, completely enlightened, grounded, wholly developed as a person and unchanged by years before and after I became a parent.
                        But THAT sounds to me like a t.v. fantasy.

                        • And in conclusion... (0 / 0)

                          I'd love to say that I was always completely confident, completely enlightened, grounded, wholly developed as a person and unchanged by years before and after I became a parent.
                          But THAT sounds to me like a t.v. fantasy.

                          strawman

                          Function: noun

                          a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted

                          • wow (0 / 0)

                            It sounds to me like this particular fragment of the post stuck in your craw just a little bit.
                            I thought that this was a place where people could express a wide range of opinions and experiences without getting mean about it. A place where, as mothers, we could relate or disagree in a healthy way.
                            Strawman?
                            Thanks I don't need a vocabulary lesson.

                            superiority complex

                            function: noun

                            An attitude of superiority that conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure.

                            • Stuck in my craw-nope! (0 / 0)

                              Stuck in my craw-not at all.

                              I simply found the sentiment to be trite and discussed it from that particular point of view.

                              Again, I addressed the comment or the opinion-not the person as you seem to be doing here.

                              superiority complex

                              function: noun

                              An attitude of superiority that conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure.

                              The truth is-you don't know anything about me other than the fact that I find the concept of

                              ....A visceral and spiritual relationship with life....

                              suddenly srpinging up after becoming a parent to be laughable.

                              Also, here's something else that you may be interested in knowing:

                              Logical Fallacies: http://www.csun.edu/...

                              Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person)

                              This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater (e.g, "The members of the opposition are a couple of fascists!"),

                          • wow (0 / 0)

                            I think you are, in general, unnecessarily harsh and combative. That's not the general tone at MotherTalkers, and I don't want it to go there. I am kindly asking you to tone it down.

                            • Harsh and Argumentative? (0 / 0)

                              While I engaged in a discussion of AN ISSUE / OPINION, someone here in the thread actually attacked my character, and now you are asking why I am

                              1. defending myself

                              and

                              1. stating my opinion

                              Quick query: Are you nuts?????

                              • maybe I am nuts (0 / 0)

                                But it looks like I'm not alone.

                                I am not commenting on this specific comment, but on your overall tone. Please take it down a notch.

                              • hey, now (0 / 0)

                                Uhura, what are you hoping to accomplish here? Telling one poster her sentiments are "trite"? Asking another poster if she's nuts? You're not going to win over supporters with a line of argumentation like that.

                                Like SwissClogs pointed out on another thread, we here at MT tend to be more mellow and less likely to insult. Smuchie was trying to express herself. There's no need to say her choice of words are "Definitely a Lifetime Televisionesque construct," there's no need to say you find her thesis that she found deeper spirituality post-children "laughable." Maybe you don't agree with Smuchie, but there's not need to ridicule her.

                                • I even tried (0 / 0)

                                  joining in the joke a while back (referring to the Lifetime comment) , but after the "strawman" comment, I didn't find it to be about the subject anymore.
                                  I used "superiority complex" as a definite and equal retort to Uhura calling my comments "weak".
                                  To use that scrappy tone and then claim victimhood when someone gives it back to you, is unfair to say the least.
                                  I apologize to the other women who have posted here looking to help and join in a discussion.
                                  I didn't mean to turn into an ugly throwdown about semantics, and certainly I'll think twice before posting again.

                                  • see now, that's what I don't want to hear (0 / 0)

                                    don't avoid posting here, Smuchie! Look at the big picture; the majority of commenters here have wanted to have a discussion of what you raise. Don't discount them and overemphasise the other ones.

                                  • I agree Smuchie... (0 / 0)

                                    don't let the comments of ONE person dissuade you from posting here again. We are a community that has proven to be very supportive and respectful.
                                  • Chiming in (0 / 0)

                                    Please don't let what happened in this thread chase you away. As you can see here, many MTs are unhappy about how a few threads went awry this week.

                                    Uhura has been called out for her tone a few times - and this is not something posters do lightly in this place.

                                    Hope you stay around!

                                  • Please DON'T STOP POSTING (0 / 0)

                                    MT is not like that!!!  I mostly stalk posts and comment now and again, BUT I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE CHANGE YOU EXPERIENCED!!!  I FELT THE SAME WAY WITH MY DD!!  Don't let someone BULLY you into not posting!!  You are a valued member of the MT community, at least my me, and judging by MOST of the other posters, I'm not the only one!!!

                            • I agree,,, (0 / 0)

                              Uhura, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with your combative comments. MT's is a community that has proven to be supportive and respectful and we want to keep it that way.
                      • Say What? (0 / 0)

                        Out of context? Careful reading?

                        OK-Here's the part I quoted:

                        OTOH, I don't personally believe stuff like:

                        A deeper understanding of everything.  A visceral and spiritual relationship with life.

                        That does sound a bit high horsey. It's kind of hard to see how this doesn't diminish people who don't have kids. And kind of hard to square with the reality of a huge diversity of people who are mothers.

                        You were not quoted out of context at all. I was merely agreeing with your assessment of the statement smuchie originally made.

                        • You're right (0 / 0)

                          "Out of context" was not the right phrase. But I would very much appreciate not being quoted if it's to shore up your harsh comment - and I happen to  agree with others who think your comments are quite harsh.

                          Look, we're having a conversation here, which is going to be spontaneous. I know I've said stuff  - any number of times - that is half-baked, not totally logical, a bit over the line polite-ness wise, and not going to get an A in rhetoric (and I am not at all saying that about smuchie's post - gah - I am feeling the need to be really careful because I am a bit afraid of what you are going to do with that sentence.). That's what peeps sound like sometimes. I hope that's ok.

                          • Here's My Penny (0 / 0)

                            Rachel, when I read stuff that is half baked or not fully cooked, I should be free to comment - right?

                            Grown ups realize that disagreeing with an opinion or pointing out holes in a line of reasoning does not diminish or insult the person who is the source of the opinion or the line of reasoning. Again-I focused on the issue not any one person. When people allowed their insecurities to color their interpretation of what I was saying all hell broke loose in the thread.

                            And, as far as the original item I talked about goes-I am more convinced now than ever - it was a load of malarkey. If what I said made absolutely no sense, the reactions would not have been as strong as they were.

                            For those who stated that they are not sure about what I am trying to accomplish, your difficulty arises from the fact that I am not attempting to accomplish anything.

                            • You may not be trying to accomplish anything (0 / 0)

                              but your comments in this thread and others have been detrimental to the atmosphere we generally enjoy at MT - so you have accomplished that.

                              I will repeat myself:

                              And I agree too (0 / 0)

                              I've been itching to write to you to calm down for about an hour now (comments in three different threads). The atmosphere here (MT) tends to be mellow, respectful and thoughtful, while your comments stand out as quite aggressive.

                              Please tone down your comments a bit - it will be appreciated.
                              Thanks,

                              by SwissClogs on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:05:43 AM FWT

                              • Nope-You will do you, and I will do me. (0 / 0)

                                And I will repeat myself.

                                Grown ups realize that disagreeing with an opinion or pointing out holes in a line of reasoning does not diminish or insult the person who is the source of the opinion or the line of reasoning. Again-I focused on the issue not any one person. When people allowed their insecurities to color their interpretation of what I was saying all hell broke loose in the thread.

                                And, as far as the original item I talked about goes-I am more convinced now than ever - it was a load of malarkey. If what I said made absolutely no sense, the reactions would not have been as strong as they were.

                                Asking me to tone down my personality is insulting. And, the only reason folks are getting all riled up is because what I said made perfect sense.

                                  • Anyway (0 / 0)

                                    The bottom line is the jealous  / bitter / angry sibling (or cousin etc) is certainly not a new family dynamic.

                                    Smuchie should not have to feel guilty about her successes and she should do what she can to leave the door open for better relations with her sis.

                                  • SwissClogs (0 / 0)

                                    Well, you tried :)

                                    I am pretty sure this will fall on deaf ears, but Uhura -- you are really missing the point if you  think people are objecting to your logic.  What they are objecting to, and rightly so, is your tone.  

                                    You're completely within your rights to find someone's expression of their personal feelings "laughable" or "malarkey" (though why someone would need to be "right" about someone else's personal experience is kind of mystifying to me).  Saying so is not a way to move conversation or friendship forward.  

                                    • Case Closed (0 / 0)

                                      As far as I am concerned, my tone is appropriate. As usual-I used no profanity, I addressed the issue, and I did not attack anyone personally.

                                      We all have the right to our opinions and we should all feel comfortable in expressing ourselves in our own unique way on a public online forum.

  • Oh, that's sad (0 / 0)

    Your sister needs to have something in her life that gives her joy and purpose.  And she definitely sounds depressed.  

    I know a bit part of my depression has been irrational jealousy - I had a hard time understanding why other people get to have better jobs and vacations and whatnot, forgetting to take into account that they are older and/or have worked for years while I was failing to complete grad school.  Or, they were born rich and brilliant, and are really good tennis players, but nobody said life had to be fair and it's not like I'd really enjoy their lives anyway.

    I don't think being a mom really changed anything about my character.  I'm not a better person, but I certainly have different priorities.  You always have something to do, and it's usually at least partly fun, so that's good.

  • OUCH on your post. (0 / 0)

    The only good news I could see was that she isn't talking to you for right now.  The relationship between you two seems so sad.  But it seems also to be almost 100% one sided from what you've written.  Your sister sounds a bit mean actually which personally I would have a very hard time being around much less have my family with someone so toxic.

    I hope things get better between you and it sounds like that will come when your sister either gets help or has some sort of realization about herself and her life.

    Really sorry it sounds so miserable.

    While I was reading your writing I wondered if she wasn't related to you, how would you feel or what you would do about the relationship?  Or how would you advise a friend in a similar circumstance -- either with a family or friend relationship?  It helps me sometimes to pull myself out of the equation or frame it differently and get a better "read" on the situation without all the heavy emotion and history of family dynamics.

  • I think the family dynamic makes it harder (0 / 0)

    I certainly had friends pre-kid that were no longer good friends after kid.  In particular, we had a couple that we loved to go to dinner with.  They were vehemently childless by choice which I think is perfectly fine.  In addition, they are very busy socially so we always have to plan events with them well in advance.  So we figured that with kids nothing would change -- we would plan dinner together every couple of months, we would get a sitter, and enjoy their company as always.  

    But now we're in their "friends with kids" category, and have to initiate every event.  They've told us that kids make things so complicated that they don't make proactive effort to plan things with their friends with kids (never mind that we never expect to bring kids to events with them and look forward to kid-free time).  Instead, they expect us to do all the organizing.  So we see them about twice a year, if that, and have found that we get so paranoid about avoiding all conversations about kids that we don't enjoy the evening any more.  Meh.  

    Interestingly, they told us their experience with people with kids well before we had ours, and it seems to stem from the experience you described: people with kids think they have a different perspective and different priorities, and it's just not relevant to people w/o kids.  I don't think that's true with us, but the expectation that is there is just as difficult to deal with.

    Since she is your sister you almost have to separate it into "is this a person I would choose to spend time with" (seems the answer is no), and then "what obligation do I have to family" and take it from there.  

    --R

  • I had a best friend (0 / 0)

    Who when she came to visit me for the first time post baby, got so weirded out by the whole thing that she stopped talking to me for a while.
    She said it was "too heavy".
    We've since worked all of that out and figured out how to relate to each other past that big difference between us.

    About my sister:
    I guess that her being my sister has made room for a lot of aquiescence (is that a word?).  It's been really frusterating to watch her destroy her life, and really taxing on my time and energy to try and talk her out of it.
    It just falls on deaf ears anyway.
    We end up having the same conversation over and over again.

  • Good Grief! (0 / 0)

    Another Thought is this:

    Even IF your sister managed to have a child, this dynamic would likely continue and intensify vis a vis competition about who is the "better" mommaUnit.

    Unresolved familial issues are a bitch.

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