Mother Talkers

Out late on a school night?

by madwoman in the attic

Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:33:31 AM PDT

Good topic, Madwoman! What say you, MotherTalkers? -Elisa

My dear stepdaughter (DSD) is 14. There are four of us adults (both divorced parents have new long term partners) spoiling her. We do talk amongst ourselves and have a united front, but we're usually united in indulging her.

This afternoon DSD wanted to go to the mall after school, and the group of four friends decided to see a movie, and what with one thing and another she didn't get home until 8:30 (bedtime is 9) and her homework was very rushed and she didn't get to bed until 9:30 - and this is a girl who very much needs her sleep. We HAD a "no movies on weeknights" rule (from the last time I took her to a movie on a weeknight and it went badly) but we forgot.

We have also let her go to concerts on school nights - if it's a band she really likes and that's the only night they are in town. The next one is next Monday. My partner has heard from other families (at parent teacher night) that they don't approve and our rules look slack compared to theirs. Do other parents of teenagers, or those of you who used to be teenagers yourselves :), have any advice?

I know one reason why I am being a wimp. Social things are rough for DSD* and I don't want to make it harder for her - I mean it's a win for her that other nice girls (they are nice, I have known most of them for several years) want to go with her to the mall. And her rock fandom (totally over the top - she spends way more energy on it than on schoolwork) gives her some social cachet since she isn't good at sports.

But I still think we need to have a firmer "homework first" rule.

I would be very grateful for any advice about how/where to draw the line. Thank you!

Maddie

*She is starting to have more social challenges because she has gained lots of weight recently, plus we are poor compared to the average family at her private school (dad pays the school fees), plus due to a birth defect she has to stay out of some of the sports (although thankfully not all). One more social challenge: at DSD's request her mom and I keep our relationship low key, which is why I was not at parent teacher night even though I do my fair share of the hands on parenting. (Actual quote when I moved in four years ago: "One of the girls in year ten's mum is a lesbian and she has NO FRIENDS." - meaning the girl I think, not the mum.)

+++ And now for a TOTAL digression (cultural note) about why DSD was at the mall on Thursday specifically...

In my Australian city, most shops and malls close at 5.30 every weeknight other than Thursday, and even earlier on Sat/Sun. Thursday is a special night of "late night shopping" in which people crowd the malls and wander around until shops close at 9pm, just because they can. (Grocery stores, bars, and cinemas are open later, and a few pharmacies, which are called chemists, but if you want a KMart at 6pm on Weds, sorry!) In a way it feels good though, that there are some hours of the week that are not yet totally devoted to consumption. Apparently until fairly recently shops closed on Sat at lunchtime (so people could play sports with their families in the afternoon?) and didn't open on Sunday at all, so Sunday shopping still feels newfangled (just like in Boston right after the blue laws were repealed - oops, now you can tell I am OLD :) ).

Poll

What limits would be best in the long term?

37%59 votes
30%47 votes
7%12 votes
24%38 votes

| 156 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: teenagers, balance, consumption, homework (all tags)

Permalink | 21 comments

  • my two cents (0 / 0)

    having no teenagers yet, but 11 y.o. twins. So, for what it's worth, who knows where I'll be when they are teens?

    But I would say rare events and homework must come first. If she was out after school at the mall, and had not had a chance to get her homework done yet, then I'd probably say no to the movie.

    I just know that both my kids would not do a good job on homework in a rush situation, and also they both need their sleep. Other kids may be able to get homework done quickly and do well at it, or may be okay on less sleep.

    Lots of people around here let their kids stay up and watch the year University of Texas won the Rose Bowl and National Championship. The game was not over until about 11 local time [on a school night]and we made our kids go to bed at regular time[they were 3rd graders]. So I am possibly stricter than other people would be about these things.

    by Lisa in Austin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:02:46 AM PDT

    • Yes, homework first! (0 / 0)

      Thank you and everyone for the help thinking this through!

      From the twins I know, I think your two will really appreciate having each other to rely on, through the teenage angst. Kids with siblings also find them helpful. DSD has found some other "only children" to bond with and they go on a bit about how much fun it would be to have a sibling.

      (This is NOT a judgement on anyone for having just one. For lots of families that's the right number. Just saying that the twins will have each other's back and that's a good thing.)

      by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 03:41:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • School nights were out for our kids. (0 / 0)

    This was our rule but of course now and then there were exceptions but it was not until high school.  I seem to remember a concert or two.

    I am quite certain we did not let our kids do a social event on school nights when they were in middle school.

    But, I also have to say this wasn't a problem for us because both of my kids were grade and sleep worriers.

    by janetle on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:16:09 AM PDT

  • I replied only concerts (0 / 0)

    but now I feel like life is short, be flexible.  I also feel strongly that you should go by what you think is right and not worry that being lenient irritates other parents.  Truly, if they don't have the confidence to stand by their own rules, it's their problem.

    As for homework, I'd have to ask if she is a good student in general.  If she is, I don't see a problem with her having a social life during the week, especially since you point out that she has a difficult time socially.  Social development seems just as important to me, as long as it's happening in a healthy way.

    by Erin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:37 AM PDT

    • No, not a good student (doesn't value it) (0 / 0)

      DSD's problem w/ academics is that social stuff comes first. Except for a few favourite courses, she seems to care mainly about who she's going to sit with in each class, and picking subjects that other people are doing so she can see her friends.

      She's in a few of the top classes, but in the third class down (of seven possible) for math. She and I are working on going over old exams and seeing how she could get better marks if she just checked her work and found/fixed stupid mistakes. (She wants to race through the test and look around.) A ray of hope this year: she thinks it would be a bad mark socially to be put down ANOTHER level in math (having gone down both of the last 2 years) so maybe she'll at least work hard enough to stay where she is.

      Mom and I have absorbed all that stuff about not telling DSD she's smart (because that is demoralising), just saying that the important factor is how hard she works (and reinforcing when she does it). I think if I started babbling about how Simone Weil says that the goal of school studies is to learn how to pay attention (to anything - ultimately to God and our neighbors) she would just tune out. So I don't. :)

      I just want her to be able to do SOMETHING well enough so that she'll be able to feed herself when she grows up. Well, this is part of that parenting thing that I thought my life would not include and yet - here we all are!

      Thank you SO much to you and everyone (I'll write that at the end too)!

      by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 03:32:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • What time's school the next morning? (0 / 0)

    9pm bedtime seems incredibly early to me, but I'm also aware that my school start in comparison to international norms was late. I only left the house at 8:50 (got out of bed at 8:10) to get to school on time, and by 14 I was regularly staying up 'til 11:30. It's hard to know how flexible you should be without knowing what time she has to get up in the morning. (Incidentally, I'll get on my soapbox here - there's plenty of evidence that melatonin production in teenagers kicks in very late, most can't get to sleep before anywhere between 11 and 1am between the ages of 13 and 20 - obviously this is very variable - and as such aren't firing on all cylinders if school begins at 7:00 or 7:30. Some research I saw a few years ago suggested you can push up teens' grades simply by moving school start to 9am or 10am instead of the earlier time. Conversely, the opposite is true for pre-teens, they do best if they start at 7am.)

    "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

    by Expat Briton on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:51:09 AM PDT

    • read similar studies (0 / 0)

      when I was a local journo in suburban Massachusetts, the high school principal at the high school in the town I covered was totally advocating that the start times for the primary schools and high school flip flop - start primary school at 8 a.m. and start high school at 9.30 a.m. and just extend the day. (she advocated for this approach to keep the bus contracts in place.) It never took off, but I thought it was a very proactive idea.

      by Rachel on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:20:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • They have to be on campus by 8.20 (0 / 0)

      Classes actually start at 8.24 but the official rule (which we sometimes break - and get marks in her handbook) is that she needs to be there by 8.20.

      DSD is a slow starter in the morning - gets up around 7pm and parks herself in front of the internet (which is in the common room) and reads celebrity gossip sites & music news. Then breakfast, shower, etc. before we leave at 8am - well, I'm ready to drive her then, she is not always ready to be driven. ("Where are my socks!?" "In the [sock] drawer." etc.) We are trying to get her to pack her school bag the night before.

      The reason for the sleep fierceness is that she was one of those infants who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time, had to have all kinds of interventions (reported by her mom - I wasn't there). I can testify that she is MUCH more tractable and less temperamental when she gets enough sleep. On weekends bedtime is closer to 10pm and even on weeknights there has been some texting after 9pm...anyway, a regular schedule is crucial, but maybe you're right, maybe she doesn't need 10 whole hours every night, maybe 9 would do.

      I too have read the research about how starting later in teh day helps kids. (And it would make it easier for the drop-off too.) Thank you to everyone for the VERY helpful comments.

      by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 02:37:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • torn (0 / 0)

    My folks were strict when I was growing up, so definitely no movies, certainly no concerts, weekend curfew of 10 p.m. until I was 18. I was so socially dead it wasn't funny!

    So I understand your feelings a lot, but, well, let me ask: how are your DSD's grades? Do you think that the evening activities are having a material impact? Can you compromise and one event per week, to be discussed beforehand? That way DSD has to apply some forward planning to get things done, which is never a bad thing for a teenager.

    BTW, are you in Melbourne like me? I'm sorry to hear that you're encountering such homophobia. I rather thought that Melbourne and Sydney were more liberal when it came to gay relationships. Certainly my suburb and environs are relaxed about it.

    by Rachel on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:24:47 AM PDT

    • Thank you - this rocks. (0 / 0)

      I was socially dead too! :)

      I am going to do what you-all suggest. (See my note to Erin above re DSD's grades. The quality of her work overall is sloppy. Last year she was ranked 53rd out of 150-odd girls and we're shocked at that, we can't believe so many others are even worse.) Forward planning would be GREAT for her!!

      Re where I am, I answered your kind message offline with all the details. Maybe it was caught in your spam filter because my email is "weirdbuttrue@gmail..." :) so I will resend. It goes on too long about about our degrees of "outness" so feel free to skip/skim. My town is liberal socially, but DSD goes to a school run by a disapproving church. My partner says, "They are hypocrites - I think some other parents have figured it out but as long as we keep a low profile" - i.e. don't take a table at the fundraising dinner (as if we had the money!) - "the school will let us alone."

      I am sad because I'm a Christian and if I were out I could go to the weekly parents' prayer meeting etc. etc. However. Back to the homework issue - the support and ideas here have been really helpful.

      by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 03:58:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Just want to say (0 / 0)

        sorry that they are not supportive of you. I am a Christian and member of a church that welcomes all regardless of orientation. I hope that someday that is how all Christian churches will be but I fear not in my lifetime.

        by Lisa in Austin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 04:46:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I found one too (0 / 0)

          Thank you Lisa! I have found a welcoming church myself and appreciate your kind thoughts.

          It is great to feel included (and we are cutting down on the numbers of gay teenagers who kill themselves, which is good) but now I think the next challenge is that some churches spend too much time worrying about this and not enough time on the other issues Jesus talked about. Even if we disagree about the role of women and/or how to organise our family lives, we can all agree on feeding the hungry, visiting people in prison, tearing our coats in half and sharing them, and other things Jesus very clearly recommended. I was an Episcopalian for several decades (after being raised Presbyterian) and I am sad to see the international Anglican communion splitting over gay inclusion - I think it's distracting them from what we CAN all work on together (global stewardship of the earth, etc.)

          Well how's that for topic drift! Thank you again...

          by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:47:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      • I checked my e-mail and it didn't come through (0 / 0)

        can you resend to mtrachel(at)gmail(dot)com?

        by Rachel on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:04:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • I agree with Erin's comment. (0 / 0)

    Flexibility is a good thing.  Generally, our family rules were to keep the school week free of TV, and social activities but we definitely had exceptions which happened during high school years.  During middle school there just weren't any events I recall that seemed compelling enough to warrant having our kids forgo the obvious need for rest and structure the night before a school day.

    We allowed our rules to be put aside for midnight premiere showings of Harry Potter movies for DS who had read all the books and was a huge fan, last minute ask to American Idol tour night last by neighbor who had one extra ticket for DD who was over the moon excited to attend....other than those events, the school week was just too busy and tiring to add more stuff.

    School nights for our family are too short to fit in added social activities on top of dinner, homework and extracurriculars (for my kids that activity is sports, but for others its drama, dance, music, debate teams, etc.).

    I confess that I am not a fan of hanging out at malls even on weekends although it's a huge "activity" in today's culture - especially so in California it seems to me.

    I agree with Erin about parents having their own convictions and standing by their own rules etc...but I think it is helpful for parents to know the guidelines and rules of others --- parents are both encouraged to stick to their own convictions by others' examples and also find support in knowing they aren't "the only ones" insisting on boundaries and discpline.  That challenge of "you're the only parents who...." frequently is the challenge lobbed at parents by kids.  If parents have lots of communication within and outside of their own peer group and friends, the support from that wider community is very valuable.

    This becomes extremely real when families face the inevitable subjects of underage drinking, parties at homes where parents aren't present, kids driving other kids when the law prohibits it, etc during the high school years.  The early habits of parenting kids and having open communication, go a long way towards being firm when faced with much more serious issues and when the consequences are far greater than just being tired or sick the next day.

    karen

    by karen m on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:30:44 AM PDT

    • Yes, open communication... (0 / 0)

      This mutual support and exchange of info is so helpful. (I am lesrning anonymously from y'all via MT while my partner gathers info at parent teacher night and we are both VERY grateful for the good info.)

      The things you let your kids do on weeknights - I agree, they were opportunities too unusual to pass up!

      Your point about communication - getting it to work NOW because soon we'll need it even more - has also hit home. My sense is that right now she is still telling us what really happens in her life, and I don't want that to change.

      Re hanging out at the mall not being a great activity: yup. I found out what they did yesterday (other than going to a movie and eating dinner): they tried samples of all the perfumes at the department store. (I think only one of them bought something.) The stores must dread these mobs of schoolgirls in uniform.

      by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 02:52:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • at least (0 / 0)

        they weren't buying thongs at Abercrombie, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago ;-)

        by Lisa in Austin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 04:47:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • I remember being out (0 / 0)

        with my daughter shopping in San Diego and her loving to try the perfumes. The store we were in was devoted to perfume only and had staff dedicated to wait on the girls and give them tons and tons of spray samples on small strips of paper.  This was a couple of years ago -- she was probably 13 or 14 and when it came time to leave the store, the salesperson tried to cajole me into purchasing and said "oh you must buy some for her" and proceeded to show us several bottles that she felt were a good deal.  Of course my dd badly wanted whatever she saw and smelled in that moment. I think the bottles had very little perfume in them and totaled well over $100.  Yikes.  I didn't buy, but I felt totally put on the spot and made to look "bad" by not purchasing for my daughter.

        I get overwhelmed a bit with the shopping activity.  It doesn't interest me much and there is just too much covert pressure to buy more and more...but I do understand why people love to go to the mall.  

        I think the proverbial deck is stacked against us in terms of encouraging to save for the future or not buy when we don't need an item, the message is, why not spend now, no matter if you can afford it or need it.

        So you can imagine my daughter thinks I am such a stick in the mud....but I have great savings:>) which will send her to college!

        karen

        by karen m on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 04:57:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • That's terrific! (0 / 0)

          In Australia we say "good on ya" which means "Congratulations, way to go..." It will be so much better for your DD to have low or zero student loans, than a bunch of "stuff".

          One cool thing that happened with DSD is that last year she read a YA novel called The Gospel According To Larry. The main character had only 75 possessions including clothes. In other words if he bought a new CD he had to trade one in. When he bought a bike he sold his guitar, etc. DSD and a friend decided to try to get along with only 75 possessions but her solution was to move almost everything else from her room into the hall where I had to decide what to do with it :) - but it was a step in the right direction and at least she is thinking about consumerism. Next step is to discuss where the shoes she buys were made, etc. Her mom travels to China for work (among other places) and sees what the factories are like...

          Argh, time to get in the car again. Take care!

          by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:11:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  • Awesome moral support (0 / 0)

    I am going to try these suggestions - thank you for the support to refocus on homework, forward planning in special cases, etc.

    We are also working on the health issues so maybe DSD and I will be over posting on Rachel's workout topics pretty soon.

    I appreciate this community very much! Thank you Elisa Erika and Gloria for the extra work of moderating and thank you ALL for the great feedback.

    Maddie

    by madwoman in the attic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 04:12:11 PM PDT

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