Mother Talkers

Strokes among middle-aged women triple

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:10:53 PM PDT

Stroke is uncommon in women, especially in younger women. But there's an alarming study out showing that women are experiencing strokes at an accelerated rate:

Nearly 2 percent of women ages 35 to 54 reported suffering a stroke in the most recent federal health survey, from 1999 to 2004. Only about half a percent did in the previous survey, from 1988 to 1994.

Men in the same survey did not show an increase. The risk factor that appears to be in play is increased obesity.

The increase makes stroke more common in middle aged women than in men, a significant reversal from the previous statistics, where men in this age range had twice the rate of strokes.

The article notes that these women were on medications to control blood pressure and cholesterol, which are supposed to limit the risk of stroke.

While they are showing that women are getting larger around the waist, I'm skeptical. Surely the men are putting on pounds at a similar rate, and yet their risk did not change in this survey. What could be going on?

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Tags: stroke, health care (all tags)

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  • OK, I am an expert on this (0 / 0)

    Just kidding, but actually, very little is known about strokes.  (Too bad all our tax money is going to wars and tax cuts for the rich instead of medical research.)

    Anyway, I had a minor stroke at age 44, and then a major one at age 49.  Which ended my career.  (Right after, I could only speak about 50 words -- and even today, have a very hard time remembering proper nouns, for some reason.)  One month before my youngest graduated from high school.  Too bad I counted on this time to be traveling, saving a lot of money, etc.

    Anyway, I was not fat.  I did not have high cholesterol.  In fact, they never could figure out why I had the strokes.  Except I had high blood pressure.  In fact, when I was in a special hospital-type place for a month after, I was amazed at those there (all stroke victims).  I thought they would all be very old.  No.  About 4 were, but most were in the age range you mentioned.  And there were very young ones -- in their 20s, and even 2 in their TEENS.  (Interestingly enough the teens were males.)  There were also some African Americans, and it was easy to see why they had strokes.  They weren't paralyzed, like me, but theirs was because of diet I am sure.  At mealtime, where we all sat together, they were on very strict diets.  I was one of the VERY few who had no restrictions on my diet.  But their diet was VERY low cholesterol, low sodium.  (They would always salivate when my plate came, with the bacon and eggs in the morning -- they wanted it SO badly, but had some yucky-looking oatmeal.  (Of course, I tried to sneak them a piece of bacon, but I got caught.  Some never grow up.  LOL)

    So, after all this typing (with one hand -- I am still paralyzed), I have never answered the question you asked:  "What could be going on?"  I don't think even the medical establishment knows for sure.  They know some, like high BP, or diet, or whatever.  But some (most?) -- and esp. the victims who are under about 65 -- they have no clue.  (Or they aren't telling.)  And trust me -- I had every test known to man, afterward, to find out WHY I had it, and they could never tell.

    As for why females have more, the only guess I have is stress.  All I can do is plead with everyone (no matter what your age) to regularly check your blood pressure!

    • Wow... (0 / 0)

      The things that you just don't know about people from typing! You're amazing, Shell.

      Thanks for your perspective.

    • One of the things I felt (0 / 0)

      while reading this article, is that there was a sense that the establishment was sure they understood strokes, and a sense from me that in fact they're just feeling their way around in the dark.

      "even though" these women were now taking the recommended medications was written without any curiosity about whether maybe those drugs weren't all they were cracked up to be (though to be fair, that particular line was how it was written by a reporter).

      Wow, Shell, I had no idea you were still paralyzed. Viva la internet, and I'm glad you're here to share your wisdom with us.

      • it's an interesting comment (0 / 0)

        and true, we don't know if it was the research or the reporter saying "even though." But it brings to mind the NYT article I read a few weeks back covering a huge diabetes study that found that the group of test subjects who aggressively treated their blood sugar levles with the highest level of doses of insulin/medication actually had far worse quality of life and higher rates of death than the test subjects who followed a more moderate treatment plan of insulin/medication. The disparity was so large they actually halted the test because it was no longer ethical to continue when the outcomes were so bad on the group with aggressive treatment.

        I think the commonality is the fact that we perhaps put far too much faith in taking several types of medication to control and not looking at lifestyle. For instance, my FIL has high blood pressure, but still eats a high sodium diet (seriously high sodium). I once asked him if his doctor had recommended he at least cut the salt, and he said "what for - I take pills for that." My dad also has high blood pressure, but he and my mother have changed their diet to as little sodium as possible, and he's only on one type of medication.

        • I am kind of twitchy (0 / 0)

          about all the medications that are routinely prescribed, with the intent that they be taken for decades, with multiple other drugs.

          I do not know enough pharmacology to have a truly informed opinion... but I'm not sure every doctor does either. (Why don't pharmacists have a more prominent role in drug selection and monitoring?)

          Take multiple drugs and you're your own living breathing experiment. I just wish we were recording the data.

          • I kind of think we are (0 / 0)

            recording the data, but sadly in the wrong way. You know, like how the whole HRT/post-menopausal women and heart disease thing came to light?

            I'm not anti-medicine nor anti-long-term medical regimes (having grown up around my parents' non-profits, I have very powerful memories of how the evolution of anti-psychotics, SSRIs and other drugs for managing mental illness have made a profound difference in peoples' lives over the long term), but I do happen to believe that one should look at medicine in the context of total lifestyle and environmental factors.

            You make an interesting point with pharmacists. In the last years of my dad's full-time employment, and now in his two years of "semi-retirement", my dad's gotten involved in a project called the Storefront in NYC. It's a centre in, yes, a storefront in mid-town Manhattan for the mentally ill, and basically it administers treatment from soup to nuts. So, say you come in for a consultation with my dad, who is a social worker. You're apt to have a group meeting with the social worker, the doctor and the psychiatrist, who will talk with you about how your treatment is proceeding, what factors (like obesity, or diabetes, or high blood pressure) are impacting on your drug regime and vice versa, and how, say, your job and working routine are impacting on it all and vice versa. There's AA meetings, a branch of Weight Watchers, a GP, the psychiatrist, the social worker(s), a dentist, and, yes, a pharmacist that all have hours in the storefront.

            My dad has dual functions there - he's one of the social workers, yes, but he also collates data for research projects and grant-writing purposes. Unsurprisingly, he's discovered over the years that by addressing mental illness in the context of everything else, and not in isolation, the "co-morbidity" factors have also decreased and people have healthier outcomes.

            Sorry - long post, but I've become quite passionate about this subject.

            • I am interested to know .... (0 / 0)

              ... your father's opinion of "anti-ADHD" drugs.  (Like Ritalin, or whatever they use today.)  I really think they ARE helpful and/or necessary for some.  But it seems that too many prescribe them too much.  (Physicians and teachers, telling parents to get them.)

              What do you (or your dad) think about these?

              And THANK YOU to your dad!  I was a Social Work major in college -- and did it for 2 years.  But I quit because I couldn't take it.  It is hard work!  (Mentally, at least.)

              • I don't know, actually (0 / 0)

                he deals with the severely mentally ill and I don't know if he's ever had to deal with ADHD. I'll have to ask!

                It's definitely hard work,  but both he and my mom (who's a rehab councellor in the same field) have done it all their lives with great passion and dedication. But it's so not for everyone; neither my sister nor I have gone into social work and we've both agreed that it's good things for us!

        • drugs (0 / 0)

          I think the commonality is the fact that we perhaps put far too much faith in taking several types of medication to control and not looking at lifestyle.

          Doctors and researchers look at lifestyle.  Everyone knows that's the most effective intervention.  But they can't control it.  Physicians can recommend changes in diet and lifestyle but most insist that these recommendations go in one ear and out the other.  And weight loss diets have a high rate of failure even when diligently followed.  If a patient won't or can't take control of risk factors, the only thing a doctor can do is prescribe meds.  Even though all medications have drawbacks and side effects, and they can't save you from yourself, some people just want a pill.

          In the case of CVD, the meds actually work pretty well.  If it weren't for weight trends, stroke and heart attacks would probably be on the decline.  At least in men, we are now seeing fewer deaths from CVD at each weight level, but since there are now more people in each riskier weight group the effects cancel out.  In women, though, drug management is less effective, so the increased weight comes with increased risks.

          • I agree with you (0 / 0)

            that doctors alone can't control lifestyle. But doesn't that hint more of the failures of the traditional medical model?

            It's not always, also, that people just want a pill but that preventative/proactive treatments aren't available/affordable under the current US medical fiasco. I remember a NYT series last year about diabetes; there was a program run by (I believe) Beth Israel; focused on lower-income people, it ran as a preventative, holistic approach, so yes, blood sugar monitoring, but in conjunction with group discussions, education on why neglecting your meds/regime is just so damn bad, weight control plans, diet and nutrition classes, etc., etc. The result? Better co-morbidity statistics and a marked decrease in the number of amputations related to complications from diabetes. You'd think this would become standard, but the program actually had to be shut down because of lack of funds; HMOs pay for amputations, you see, but not for preventative healthcare, and most of these people didn't have medicaid. Most of the people in the program loved it and would have stuck with it, but after it was finished, the old, bad habits crept back in.

            • here's the NYT article (0 / 0)

              hereand here, to me, is the point of it:

              One patient, Ella M. Hammond, a retired school administrator, recalled standing up in the classroom one day in 1999.

              "Has anyone noticed what's different about me?" Ms. Hammond asked.

              Blank stares.

              "Now, come on," she said, ruffling the fabric of a black gabardine pantsuit she had not worn since slimmer days, years earlier.

              "Don't y'all notice 20 pounds when it goes away?" she asked.

              Ms. Slavin, one of four full-time staff members who worked at the center, remembers laughing. There were worse reasons for an interruption than a success story.

              Like many Type 2 diabetics, Ms. Hammond had been warned repeatedly by her primary care doctor that her weight was too high, her lifestyle too inactive and her diet too rich. And then she had been shown the door, until her next appointment a year later.

              "The center was a totally different experience," Ms. Hammond said. "What they did worked because they taught me how to deal with the disease, and then they forced me to do it."

              Two hours a day, twice a week for five weeks, Ms. Hammond learned how to manage her disease. How the pancreas works to create insulin, a hormone needed to process sugar. Why it is important to leave four hours between meals so insulin can finish breaking down the sugar. She counted the grams of carbohydrates in a bag of Ruffles salt and vinegar potato chips, her favorite, and traded vegetarian recipes.

              After ignoring her condition for 20 years, Ms. Hammond, 63, began to ride a bicycle twice a week and mastered a special sauce, "more garlic than butter," that made asparagus palatable.

              She also learned how to decipher the reading on her A1c test, a periodic blood-sugar measurement that is a crucial yardstick of whether a person's diabetes is under control.

              "I was just happy to finally know what that number really meant," she said.

              Not to wrest the thread away from the stroke issue, but I think the lack of knowledge of how to prevent stroke is along the same lines as the treatment of Type II diabetes.

              • our system is broken - but we knew that :-( (0 / 0)

                Oh, but that's not a failure of the traditional medical model - there's nothing 'traditional' about denying preventative care.  Every medical professional I know would love more patient education and chronic disease management.  

                This is a failure of the health care system.  Every public health worker, researcher, or official I've spoken to in the past 2 years believes our private insurance based health care system is broken beyond repair.  But you're right to point out that doctors can't prescribe effective management if patients can't afford it and insurance won't cover it.

                DH and I rented Sicko last week.  At the end he seriously wanted to have a discussion about why we've never considered moving to another country.  That's just tragic.

          • I think the 12-minute appointment (0 / 0)

            makes lifestyle suggestions impossible. Here you've got someone in front of you that you barely know, maybe you saw them for 12 minutes last year, and so if you want to convey that info, it has to be fast and brusque.

            When I was sick, on my own I found a dietician (and paid for her completely too). I think I had about 10 hours of her time in total - which cost about 20% of just one run of the drug alternative that wasn't working anyway. In 10 hours, she could get to know me, we corresponded via email (I could write out my frustrations at midnight, or tell her what I'd eaten that day, or ask for suggestions), and she could make suggestions that fit me and my talents and my family and my lifestyle.

            I know not all of her clients were/are successes. But, I still treasure what she did for me 7 years later, and my eating and cooking changed dramatically based on her suggestions. No doctor - even if you could find an MD who knew as much about nutrition as she did - could have done that for me.

            I think that's why chiropractors and homeopaths have become popular - not because their methods are more effective - but because they have the time to spend with a client. That's what most people need - the time. They don't need someone with an MD, just someone knowledgeable about their particular need who can be there to provide support during the transition to new habits.

            • 12-minute appointments!!!! (0 / 0)

              This new way of doing medical care drives me nuts!  Before my stroke sometime, I went to the doctor.  After I told him about my problem (I can't even remember what it was now), he answered or prescribed something, and was turning to leave.  I said, "Wait, I have a couple other things I want to ask you about."  He actually said, "No more today -- if you have other problems, make another appointment."  #$%$#^Y%^$#%$

              That was my first time to see him -- and the last.  As I have said, I don't go to the doctor too often, and being a contractor, I had to switch doctors (and medical care) way too often.

              He was in my exam room, hearing me talk for exactly 8 minutes.  And he couldn't even take 10 more minutes!

      • Doctors and stroke knowledge (0 / 0)

        "... there was a sense that the establishment was sure they understood strokes"

        That is probably true -- you know doctors!  (Sort of kidding -- to those of you who may be doctors!)

        Seriously though, if you question your doctor (with me, it was more like grilling him), s/he will admit they know very little.

    • boy, life threw you a couple (0 / 0)

      of big curves, no?  I would never have guessed that you're coping with such a limitation.  Congratulations on what sounds like an amazing amount of progress.

    • glad you are here... (0 / 0)

      and told your story.  i say WOW too.  

      i don't know why women would suffer from strokes more than men.  could it be birth control?  or does the high blood pressure medication work differently for women?

      shell, i thank you for your story.  my oldest brother suffered a stroke at age 49 and then died 2 months later.  high blood pressure was the likely reason.  he had been taking medication for it but stopped 2 years prior to his stroke. i firmly believe if he had kept on the medication he'd still be with us.

      • TRUE! (0 / 0)

        You should know that I did several high-risk things.  I smoked for years.  Can it affect you, years later?  I also took birth control pills, but interestingly enough, They wouldn't give them to me after my 2nd child, because of highER blood pressure, but not high enough for medication, I guess.  And, of course, I got pregnant with my 3rd child when the second was 6 months old.  My, an unplanned pregnancy and a 3rd child help your blood pressure!  haha  So, I hadn't had BC pills for 18 years before my stroke, but DID for years, long ago.

        They have found that skin cancer lies in wait for decades, and I have found this to be true, too.  I was a sun worshipper back in my youth, but hadn't gone out in the sun without heavy sun block for the past 25 years.  Yet, I had skin cancer, too, about 6 months before my stroke.  Yeah Yeah Yeah, it seems like I am a walking unhealthy person, which is not the case.  I really am healthy, except for the stroke.  And the skin cancer was the least serious kind.  They removed it in the doctor's office.  No biggie, I guess.

        Who knows?

    • There's an interesting hypothesis (0 / 0)

      Wow, Shell, I had no idea you were wrestling with a disability.  I hope there are some answers for you on the horizon.

      There's an interesting hypothesis about African Americans and salt related hypertension.  It turns out that AAs have a much higher frequency of salt sensitivity than the African populations they are descended from.  And their are stories that slave traders used to lick the skin of their captives to assess their chances of surviving the transatlantic trip.  So the idea is that these survivors excreted (or retained?) salt in a way that helped them survive dehydration, and now their descendants are predisposed toward hypertension.

      • I believe it (0 / 0)

        "It turns out that AAs have a much higher frequency of salt sensitivity than the African populations they are descended from."

        I remember reading somewhere that the Chinese had a much lower rate of cancer and heart attacks than Americans of Chinese heritage.  Mostly because of diet.  Those still living in China were much thinner, too.  But when they moved to America, they ate like us.

        But I read that quite awhile ago -- I don't know if it is still true ....

    • Shell (0 / 0)

      I'm so sorry to hear about your stroke as I too, suffered a stroke at the age of 32.  This was my 2nd stroke as the doctors told me I had scar tissue showing I had had a previous minor one that I probably blew off as not feeling well that day.

      I smoked and was on BC pills, plus my grandmother has Protein S, Protein C disease which is where the blood clots more than it should.  I tested negative for the disease, but my neurologist said the test is not very accurate. I was on Plavix for a year after the stroke, but now it is daily aspirin therapy.  It would probably be good for all women to take an aspirin a day.

      I'm lucky in that my only residual side effects are right side weakness when I'm tired, slight loss of peripheral vision in my right eye and I also struggle with memory and finding the right words.

      My blood pressure is on the low side, my cholesterol levels are normal and I'm not overweight, so don't ignore the signs of a stroke because of age and good health, and if you smoke quit.

      • my brother was a smoker (0 / 0)

        but had quit 3 years prior to his stroke.  unfortunately he quit his BP medication a year later.

        i have said this here before,but will again on this thread. my dad's side of our family lost every male before the age of 45 to heart attack/stroke.  my dad had all the risk factors; high blood pressure and high cholesterol.  at 32 he had a physical and discovered his health issues.  he quit smoking, my mother put the entire family on a healthy, low fat meal plan and my dad took up excercising.  he also went on blood pressure meds and later statins.

        my dad turns 85 this May.  he played tennis up until last Novemeber, rode a bike until age 83 and swears he will again. in december he wasn't feeling well and they explored his heart. he hadn't suffered a heart attack but they  discoverd heart disease and conducted a simple procedure by putting in a stent to open up an artery.

        dad is a testament to the fact that eating healthy, excercising and monitoring your health results in greatly increasing your odds to live a long life.

  • I think perhaps the real story here (0 / 0)

    is that we've become pretty good at managing cardiovascular disease in middle aged males.  Given the increase in risk factors in the general population it has been a surprise that CVD hasn't proportionately increased.  This is generally attributed to the success in cholesterol management, particularly the statins.  Cholesterol etc. isn't the only risk factor, but it's the one we understand and manage best.

    But we also know that CVD manefests itself very differently in males and females.  Women for example have different symptoms when experiencing a heart attack.  And aspirin has been shown to help men, but not women.  After my husband's bypass surgery I was told a woman would not have survived his defect; it was something that was 100% fatal in women.

    It is only in the last decade or so that the extent of the gender differences became apparent.  Researchers now appreciate and focus on this, but the studies, especially long term studies, will take a while to catch up.  Meanwhile the risk factors are going through the roof.

    • no aspirin for women? (0 / 0)

      my doc told me that research supports men taking one baby aspirin a day,but that women should take 2.
      • if your doc says so (0 / 0)

        I definitely overstated this; what I should have said is that a daily baby aspirin does not cut heart attack risks over the general female population.  I believe there is some benefit to specific high risk populations though I don't know how strong the data is.  I don't know about dosage.  This is getting into the realm of individualized outcomes, way outside my understanding.  

        It's best to take medical advice from doctors, not epidemiologists. :-)

      • My doctors told me this, too (0 / 0)

        After my stroke.  So, maybe it is for strokes as well as heart attacks.

    • cholesterol (0 / 0)

      I heard Michael Pollan talking about his new book about how to eat, a follow-up on the Carnivore's Dilemma.  He developed a brief prescription: Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.  (Food = less than five ingredients on any packaged food, unless it's a casserole or something, and all ingredients should be things you can recognize / pronounce.)

      One comment he made that I found interesting was that cholesterol is not necessarily the most salient contributor to CVD, but the one we've been able to measure.  He seemed to be suggesting that we've over-focused on it.  He would have preferred focusing on, say, transfats, which he describes as lethal, compared to cholesterol, which may or may not be.

      • hard to decide.. (0 / 0)

        Healthy heart/stroke tests include:

        1.blood pressure
        2.total cholesterol ( LDL bad, HDL good)
        3.triglycerides ( different measure of fat in the blood)
        4.HS-CRP (high sensitivity C reative protein)
        5.Homocysteine

        Supposedly you should monitor all of the above.

        • is homocysteine testing sort of new? (0 / 0)

          I got the impression from Pollan that until recently doctors only had the first three measurements available, so that's what the public education campaigns focused on.

          • yes, new (0 / 0)

            read it today in sf chronicle.  here is the part about homocysteine.

            Homocysteine: Higher levels (greater than 15 micro mol/L) of this protein in the blood are associated with an increased risk of heart disease and stroke, but it is unclear whether lowering levels really helps decrease that risk. Increasing your intake of B12 (RDA is 2.4 micrograms/day), B6 (RDA is 1.3 mg/day) and folate (0.4 mg/day) can effectively lower homocysteine levels in most cases. Dietary sources of folate include fortified whole grains, beans and dark green leafy vegetables. B12 can be found in lean protein such as meat, fish, poultry, milk products and eggs, and some of the best sources of B6 include fortified cereals, bananas, potatoes, beans, pork loin and chicken. Supplement your diet with these three nutrients (a daily multivitamin with 100 percent of the RDA is sufficient) if your homocysteine levels are high and you have risk factors for heart disease like high blood pressure, high cholesterol or a family history.

      • interesting point (0 / 0)

        the medical model focusing on what it does because it's what it can measure and monitor. I suppose we're all like that to a certain extent.

        • I thought it was interesting (0 / 0)

          partly because I'd never really thought about it before.  I recently had a fasting cholesterol and lipds test and was happy to find all the numbers looking good.  Can't hurt :)

          We have a great radio talk show line-up on our public radio station here and I learn so much when I'm in the car (that is, when the 14 year old isn't DJ'ing!).

  • I agree (0 / 0)

    If I could, I would live in the country and grow all the food I eat.  The past few years, I have practically stopped eating meat.  Every once in a while, I will have an In-And-Out burger (I can't resist!), but mostly no.  Not because I had a stroke, but because I just seem to not WANT meat now.

    It seems our bodies tell us a lot about what we should eat.  But we are much too busy to really pay attention.  I have found out a lot about my body and food since my stroke.  Because I got more educated about it?  Yes.  But a lot from finally having the time to listen to my body.  All those years, I would just eat a bit here and there, because I was so busy -- and never had the time to just THINK about it.

  • I "see" you here all the time and had no (0 / 0)

    idea.  You've got a great attitude.

    My husband has had a pacemaker/defib installed twice.  Both times were at fairly large hospitals.  There were no men in the waiting room "waiting" on wives.  Instead it was all women waiting on men.  Now that I think about it I don't know any women with pacemakers.  Do women die of heart problems before this is an option?

    • Come to think of it .... (0 / 0)

      I don't know even one woman who has had a heart attack, or even serious heart problems.  I am not saying they never do, but that's just my experience.  Strokes and cancer?  Oh yes.

  • My friend had a stroke at 42 (0 / 0)

    She was not overweight, not a smoker, a very active mother of three. Not on any medication whatsoever, no family risk factors-- a real medical mystery.  I think stress played a part, since none of the other risk factors were present.

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