but there's not button for that.  I am very prejudiced against such places.  Of course I wouldn't keep him out if he wanted to go and had the opportunity, but he'd have to make up the difference between that and a state school.  And I'm not sure I would be able to keep from grumbling about it.  I detest things that smack of elitism.

AP is crock and I do not advise it generally.  Yes, you can save some money and time in college, if you have to, and yes some classes are great because the teachers are great and do not teach only to the test.  It seems like a scam to me.  I also can't imagine taking multiple AP courses without having a nervous breakdown.  

Taking the test without taking a course geared to the test can work if for some reason the kid already has a leg up in that subject.  I was able to do that with Spanish, but it was a waste of time and money in the end.

but have changed my tune. I think all kids should do at least their first year at a community college, spend the 2nd and 3rd years taking all sorts of classes to find out what suits their interests/abilities, and the 4th year completely focussed on the major. But, that's just me. All that said, I don't care where my kids go; I just hope they go to college or learn a vocation/craft, something, anything that enables them to make a living doing something they enjoy.

is already planning on Miles's undergraduate years being at Princeton.  Of course, part of this is due to the fact that he is already busily picking his major and planning for college!  And, since he already has emailed with a professor there -- recall the Bonnie Bassler email exchange last year about bioluminescent bacteria -- Princeton seems a natural choice!

In all seriousness, however, it does sound like the AP thing has gotten out of control. I guess this is a result of the massive increase in applications to top tier schools owing to the Gen Y baby boomlet we've discussed here in the past.  I hope you and she will have the chance to research a wide range of schools and really consider all the options.

getting my PhD and here are my thoughts.  I grew up in a super affluent town, everyone looked down on you if you went to state schools.  They even posted the list of acceptances in the hallway so everyone could see and compare.  I went to a state school in a neighboring state, but transferred back to my home state university after my freshman year.

I cannot state this enough...I got a BETTER education at my state school than I would have at a private school.  This was for a variety of reasons, but UMaine has a great marine science program with well-known scientists, so it was a great place for me.  Also, I have no debt.

If you are worried about your kids going on to graduate school, it isn't about WHERE you go to college, but what you do when you are there.  College is becoming more like high school, in that there is no way in heck you are getting into a graduate program unless you have a good resume of extras behind you.  For instance, when I applied to graduate school to get my MS, I had: a summer internship, a federally sponsored internship, a research job at a University, internship at NOAA, and variety of volunteer things.

I did my MS degree and am now at a top 5 in the nation marine science school for my PhD.  This might be different for people in different degrees, but I have some psych. degree friends who are pretty much in the same boat.

So no worries about the Ivy's....just when your kid gets there motivate them to do things...try new things, ask professors if they can help out etc.

Good job on the front page.

I too have a daughter going off to college after next year.  But I have had a very different experience than you describe even though we live in neighboring towns and are in the same school district.  

The first difference is that our dd's counselor has never handed a course list to our dd.  To my knowledge the students bring a list home, they talk with their parents about it (some probably don't do that), they make their choices and hand it back in.  At some point, their counselor may ask that they come speak to them but frankly I'm not sure if that is true or on what basis that happens.  

I urged our dd to make an appointment with her counselor so that she could discuss her choices.  She is a strong B student, but has never taken AP courses and in my view that has been the right choice for her.  She still isn't fond of reading, doesn't enjoy history (and took US History over the summer, so that she didn't have to take it this year), and has more interest in areas like Digital Design and Sports Med.  She has taken courses in both of those subjects this year which probably will be looked at critically by some colleges, but this is who she is and this is where her interests lie at this time.  

She is in my view a wonderful, well-balanced young woman who doesn't yet have a clear view on where she is headed - which at just 17 seems pretty typical.  She does know her limits generally speaking and has made really good choices for herself and resisted the pressure cooker some students get caught up in.

As her Mom, I'm willing to let her have her childhood/preadult life without the intensity of pressuring her to be something she is not.  I feel that many in our communities get lost in the perceived "race" that they feel they are in and their children become the unintended pawns of that race.

That being said, there is no denying the fact of the actual numbers of students vying for placement in college.  As with our son though, I believe that our daughter, like countless other students, will find her place and we will support her with and through the journey.  That may mean a community college setting or a 4 year school...only time will tell.  Life is too long to make this part of it overly stressful and full of tremendous demands, but that's just MHO.

about AP classes AFTER the fact. In high school, they are just  bit tougher, move a bit faster- they aren't impossible or even "college level." They tend to teach to the test too, which can be limiting for a creative student, but often they have the most interesting material. The more difficult classes reflect the difficulty of the test and material itself. A good rule of thumb? If the subject doesn't interest her, go for either the easier of the AP classes or none at all.

HOWever, ugh. I hate the idea of AP classes. Here's why. Colleges, IMO, have formulated a pretty solid way of mapping out a student's education. The core classes, usually are for the Freshman, and they are scheduled that way to ease students into the way college is going to go. They can seem boring, repetitive, and cumbersome to smarter students BUT when you've moved into a dorm room and your mom isn't there to tell you to get your ass to bed before 1 in the morning and you just want to stay in the lobby with your new dorm mates and watch that stupid cartoon or whatever, it's generally better to realize you can't do that on nights before a test when your classes are easier. Period.

My brother was an AP scholar that got all 4s and 5s, he took every test available, and walked into his college career with a sophomore level status, 23 credit hours complete. And no GPA. So while his fellow freshman were taking the core courses he had tested out of,  he was knee deep in sophomore level science, his class schedule had many more labs and other time-consuming aspects, and when the "Bs" and one "C" hit, his GPA did a spectacular nose dive, so much so he wasn't able to get into his Pharmacy school. He's been playing catch up since. And kid? Is brilliant.

Here's the thing too: Call a college or two. Ask them what kinds of things they are looking for on applications from a student like yours. Maybe taking the language classes will look better! Tri-lingual sounds impressive. Plus, maybe a lighter workload and more volunteer opportunities is a better gig- maybe a school is looking for a more well-rounded individual, and the editor of the newspaper thing is one kid from each school- there are more AP kids than that. I think the AP thing is WAAAAAY overhyped by high schools- don't they get funding for sending kids to the tests? Or some sort of recognition for having more kids do classes than not? I don't trust their motives.

I'm way off from this, but my goal is to make sure my kids go to a good, solid school AND none of us incur debt while they are there.

I hope to be able to impart to them on their college journey is that the last thing they will want when they are 22 is a massive school loan sitting in front of them.  It's just not worth it, especially for undergrad.  

I know there has been lots of talk about predatory lending in real estate, but college can even be worse and their client base are definitely not the most financially-savvy.  

Grad and professional schools can be different, loans may make sense, but for undergrad, I say find the right school at the right price and kick some butt while you are there and you'll be just fine.

I don’t think where you go to college matters as much as where you go to law school or grad school. I also think, unless you plan on getting an advanced degree, it doesn’t matter much what you did academically in college. "Extracurriculars" and internships matter much more—they provide real-world experience and important connections that are really crucial to getting a job.

The most successful member of my family, a super-high-ranking exec, went to city college for his BS and his MBA. He just made the most of it.

My DH went to not-even-a-very-good state school and got B’s. He does not work in the field he studied at all, has no debt, and makes a damn fine living—based solely on one or two classes he took and experience he got on his own, through his own connections.

What I intend to emphasize to DS is:
(1) Avoid debt. He’ll be out of college before I’m done paying off my law school debt. If you must, save the big spending for grad school. Choose an inexpensive college, or one with a good financial package.
(2) Get as much real-world experience as possible. Take internships, work for free (I will support this however we’re able).
(3) Volunteer, volunteer, volunteer, as soon as his is capable of doing something useful. Not only is volunteer experience great college-bait, but you learn a lot about yourself and what you like to do.
(4) Make and maintain connections with adult people you admire and who admire you back. They will be great references and may just help you get that job you want—directly or indirectly.

My son went to the University of Montana.  He applied no place else even though he was an A student and his Dad is a prof at UW in Seattle.  It was a great school for him becuase he loves to hike, bike and camp.  Although anyone can get in to UM, he applied to the Davidson Honors program which was selective and had a tougher course load to graduate as an Honors scholar which he did.

But here is the thing about the high school AP courses:  He did his study abroad junior year in France.  The French students went on strike so he lost an entire second semester through no fault of his own.  He spent the time traveling around Europe.

BUT--he still graduated on time because of those AP credits!

The importance of the undergrad institution depends on what comes next. If it's going to grant the last degree a person gets, it might matter. But only for the first job, or the first few years. Beyond that, the experience will matter more.

If the plan is to go on to professional or graduate school, what matters is to do well and learn a lot. Not where it happens. So, if a kid can succeed on a campus with tens of thousands of others, then any big school is fine. If they would do better with more personalized attention, a much smaller campus will be better. But, it's the last degree that matters most, and with some exceptions, it doesn't matter where the intermediate degrees are earned. (The sort of exception I'm thinking of: some of the vet schools will allow a student to enter after their junior year, but only if they're a student at the same campus and have achieved a certain GPA. So, you'd have to be on that campus.)

AP tests are a mixed bag. As someone pointed out above, the classes they replace are the introductory classes. I teach one of those -- and I do a lot of hand-holding. I also teach upper-level classes, and I certainly don't hold hands at that level. A kid who starts out above the intro level better be ready for the pace and expectations of college (generally, one semester of college takes two in high school, and the expectation is that the kids spend at least 3h per credit hour on a class outside of class time). In many schools, the second and higher courses in a sequence assume that a set of skills are learned in the intro course -- and those may or may not be the skills learned for the AP.

My PhD is from an Ivy. I didn't pay them any tuition at all (fairly standard in the sciences for a PhD program). My undergrad was at a huge public university. At the time, a year's tuition was under $5K (it's much more now).

Oh, and a response to something above... GiGi suggested not focusing on the major until the 4th year. The main problem with that is that there are sequences of classes in majors that take 2-3 years to complete. Not to mention that a lot of my seniors enjoy the fact that they can relax with a literature or fine art course in their final semester, as opposed to being bogged down with upper level labs and coursework for 20h a week.

By the way, part of my job as professor is to do academic advising. (Small schools have that -- big schools don't.) So... feel free to ask questions if you think of any I might be able to answer...

Cheryl

"getting my child into" a certain college.

my child is who would get HIMSELF into a college, based on interest, merit, and effort.

i got into an Ivy League school and ended up not being able to afford it. this was at my instigation, the choice to put myself through the riggers of getting into this school. it meant the world to me.

had my parents foisted it upon me, i would have rebelled like nobody's business. what kid needs that pressure? there is enough of it in life. i will let my son lead the way, while providing him all manner of options and choices, then support his desires.

Undergraduate work at a better-known college is a sham.  At the smaller-known colleges, you get professors -- real professors.  "Better" ones?  Other students working on their PhDs.

In all my work years, I have noticed very few Ivy League grads and many state school grads.  You may say that is just one person's experience, but I have worked at many big-name corporations.

I guess it just depends on if your child wants an education, or a diploma.  It's that simple to me.

in college, and let me tell you back then (10 years ago), things were very competitive. But, with that being said, we were trained to tell parents that yes, AP classes look good to the admissions directors and that they liked to see the students challenge themselves. (a B in an AP class looked better than an A+ in say the easiest math course offered -  it didn't seem to matter what subject they were in). But, that being said, they are not the end all be all of grades and course. They recommended that students be well rounded, and take classes that interested them. Example: if you daughter wanted to study journalism and the school offered a non AP journalism course which she took,  wrote for the school paper, or had a part time job with a local paper they would be interested in that because she is pursuing something that interests her.That type of thing would make her application stand out. And things like school plays, sports, extra curriculars, and even part time jobs say a lot about who the student is. Now, if she wanted to get into a super competitve program (At BU two that come to mind at the 7 yr accelerated Medical program and the Physical Theraphy program) the APs, good grades, and some type of experience in those fields become even more important.

But tell your daughter to relax. She'll get in to college. There are lots of grade schools out there that aren't "Ivy". Its important that she find the right fit for her. A place where she will be happy, perform well academically, and grow as a person. Collge councelors at High Schools are often useless. She should make a list of schools that she's interested in and start talking with their admissions people. You will get much better information that way.

... on what you mean by "well known" to me.  There are many well-known colleges/univs that are very disappointing, I have found.  (Isn't George W. a Yale grad?)

I totally agree that much of college is what you make of it.  So, why go into serious debt?  LOL

... whose daughter was brilliant.  (Well, she still is.  LOL)  Straight A's in AP classes, etc.  So -- when the time came for going to college, she applied at all the "good" colleges.  Living in California, my friend really hoped she would pick Stanford, for obvious reasons.  She imagined herself going down often to visit.  When they visited Stanford, her daughter just said, "No, this is not the place."  They went to several other universities, and then they got to the east coast.  Harvard, Princeton, etc. And then they got to Yale.  After a day of touring the campus, the daughter said, "Yes, this is it."  She just felt it was right.  And she did great there.

I wasn't like that.  Sigh.

I graduated from Caltech. It was a great (though also humbling and difficult) experience for me. I loved being in a small school. I loved the people I met. I loved the opportunities I had there. And, though it was a very expensive school, due to the vagaries of funding and huge state budget cuts when I was in college, it actually cost me less than going to a UC school would have. I graduated $10k in debt, a very reasonable number.

Among the most positive aspects of college for me was living in the dorms and meeting so many of my peers. Learning to interact with people and live on my own and growing into myself was probably more important than the calculus classes I took in the long run. Oh, and I also learned to juggle, an essential skill that I especially appreciate as a mom. We also did many impromptu science activities a la mythbusters that weren't in the official catalog. The friends and network that I got out of the experience are very important to me.

That said, I don't know where my daughter will go to college, and I am not worried about it. I've seen what the admitted classes look like to Caltech these days, and they are jaw-dropping in terms of their accomplishments. The financial burden of college has increased dramatically, though I'm pleased to see the turnaround started by Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Olin. I'm not sure any degree is worth 6 figures of debt.

What's important to me for her is that she have a nice, productive life, and the top tier schools aren't necessary for that, or even necessarily positive, depending on what she wants. Burning her out in high school won't be to her benefit. And it depends on what she wants to do - if she wants to live in a rural area, studying wildlife, those Ivy schools aren't the right choice, because they tend to be focused on urban career paths.

I think it will be important to me that she attend college in a residential situation, where she lives in a different environment with other kids, different kids than she will meet here. I liked the small university, but she may have had enough of small schools by the time she hits her high school years.

The name of the school on your last degree is the one everyone remembers, but you never know for sure when you'll choose to stop. I intended to go to graduate school literally until the summer after I graduated. Maybe I'll go back someday - who knows. And in science, who you work with and the project you work on is probably more important than the actual school name.

My goal for my daughter is to be an electrician or a plumber. They make great money, can work anywhere in the world, and they can't be outsourced. And, you won't need to go $100k in debt to do them. If she wants to do something else, that's OK with me too. ;-)

So yes: the school you pick will change your life, in all kinds of ways you can never predict. It will affect where you live, what jobs you can get, what career path you take, how much money you'll have, and who you marry. No pressure, mind.

The reality is that there are happy people who make a good living who took all kinds of different paths to get there, and that focusing on just one high-stakes possibility is likely to produce disappointment.

OK, well, I have a lot of thoughts going through my mind. I did four AP classes in high school - Biology, English, History and Spanish - and loved all of them. In our school at the time I attended, the school was really strict about who they admitted to AP classes because the district paid for our tests. So the classes were small and were taught by the most experienced teachers. It was great - a real hothouse environment. I wanted to take the classes because a.) I'm a very competitive person by nature and b.) the subjects interested me. I felt they were a wonderful experience, mostly because the teachers did not teach to the text, but rather to what they felt a college-level class would be. For example, my Bio teacher used a frosh level text (it was, in fact, the text at BU's biology class!). My history teacher insisted we write primary-sources papers. Wonderful. I got 3 fives and a four on the exams, and it gave me a year's worth of credits at BU. I used the credit and enrolled in double-degrees and finished in four years. So win-win-win all around.

I admit, it worked because I am, as I said, someone who really thrives on competition and is willing to take risks. I remember being stressed in my junior and senior years, but never to the extent that I wanted to drop out of courses or activities. I always appreciated being given the chance to have this intense experience and set myself up with some options at college level.

I'm a bit wary of blanket statements like, Ivies are bad! AP classes are bad! It is what you make of it and who you are. For some people, they're bad. For some, they're good. They're not a be-all, end-all, but if it's something you want, go for it! DH and I have decided that our job is to encourage and support our child(ren) and do our damndest to save money so that they can have what I had - my folks totally paid for my college degree (I did have a half-tuition scholarship and some smaller, private scholarships, I hasten to add). It was the greatest gift they could ever have given me and I'm going to do it for my kid(s).