Mother Talkers

Before I Was A Mother…

by Elisa

Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 08:25:20 AM PDT

I said and thought a lot of things. But probably the most cliché of them all was that young children who “acted up” did so because of bad parenting. I did not realize that temper tantrums, shyness around strangers, and asking 200 questions in five minutes eventually came with that 8-pound bundle of joy.

Now, I can easily tune out even the worst tantrums no matter how close to me. And I think it will be only a matter of time before this mom, recently mentioned in Berkeley Parents Network’s advice column, will arrive at the same conclusion:

A few days ago I was speaking to another Mom who had just returned from a morning of volunteering at her daughter's preschool co-op. In the conversation she frequently labeled kids as 'bullies' or 'bad kids.' The conversation was really disturbing to me because I really didn't like hearing so many negative things about other people's children. And, I really hate kids being given labels at this age (3, 4 &5) that they may never outgrow if they are called it enough. Is there any gentle and polite way to suggest that these kids may need her empathy rather than her criticizing? Or, am I just being naive to assume that most kids at this age are probably going through a 'phase' or have some issues at home that they are processing in a less than positive way?

My world view is generally that most 3, 4 and 5 year olds having a naughty moment (or six months for that matter) are acting out in some way (age appropriate phase) or their behavior is reflecting something that isn't happy at home. I don't look at a three-year-old who has bitten my child and say 'wow...that kid is a bully and some day will end up in Supermax.' I am not saying that I like that my child was bitten, but nor do I think of the biter as a 'bully.' If a four-year-old tells my child that they aren't my child's friend anymore, then I don't think of him as a bad kid or a bully. I think that he is having a frustrating moment.

I guess what I am asking is 1) do you consider it appropriate to discuss other people's children after a playdate or in a volunteering situation. 2) Am I naive to think that most kids termed 'agressive' and 'bullies' before their sixth birthday are actually kids who are just working through a phase of their feelings? 3) If I am not naive, then is there a nice way to tell people who are labeling kids to stop it and be nice?
-just a parent...

Just give this woman time and reality will set in. LOL!

On a more serious note, I would ask this woman something like, “How do you know this child is a bully and not simply acting like a preschooler? It seems rather harsh to label a child that young.” And if she insists that her own child is perfect, like I said, I would let time -- reality -- bite her in the ass.

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Tags: motherhood, Berkeley Parents Network, bully, preschooler, child-like behavior (all tags)

Permalink | 49 comments

  • I have a friend (0 / 0)

    who makes such comments, and the way she judges such young children (even babies) really bothers me.  I can't stand it.

    I can only speak for the person I know who does this and say that speaking up would accomplish absolutely nothing.  

    by Erin on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 08:30:38 AM PDT

    • it's true- it wouldn't help (0 / 0)

      a friend of mine from is like that, and she was really proud of her own spanking and intimidating and bullying way of parenting until her daughter got kicked out of preschool for biting... the teacher!

      she still doesn't get it that her way of parenting might not be the best way to do it, but at least she's stopped judging every other parent she knows.  she even called me and apologized for some of the things she'd said to me.

      by thankgodforairamerica on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:02:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • LOL! (0 / 0)

    Love that last line Elisa :-)

    My one childless friend has come a long way on this topic. Unfortunately all her close friends up until the time we met were also childless and mine were past that stage when we connected. But enough times of me saying that tantrum throwing kids were just behaving in an age-appropriate manner got her to back off her judgments. I assured her that my boys - who she loves - went through those at that age too! Finally her college roommate had a child 4 years ago and now she gets it because she just adores her Harper and loves to be auntie to her, but has also now seen the bad attitudes and tantrums ;-)

    Trees, Flowers & Birds SanDiegoDem on all other blogs!

    by Christina on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 09:01:39 AM PDT

  • And something else (0 / 0)

    If you have one child ... or 2 or 3 or 6 ... and have gotten by without certain problems, don't think it is because of you or something you did.  Maybe it isn't.  Then again, maybe it IS.  LOL  If your kid does something that hurts/bugs others, don't ignore it, but also don't think automatically that it is your fault.  Sometimes, S**T just happens.

    by Shell on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 09:17:10 AM PDT

    • Also (0 / 0)

      maybe said child hasn't gotten by without problems.  Perhaps the parent is just blind in their own child's case.

      by Erin on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 09:39:23 AM PDT

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      • Or got lucky. (0 / 0)

        My mum always said she thought she had the parenting thing down perfectly after she had me. Slept through the night almost immediately, never had tantrums as a toddler, near perfectly behaved... then she had my sister.

        "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

        by Expat Briton on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 09:51:42 AM PDT

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      • Yes! (0 / 0)

        I cannot tell you how many times I have been talking to a parent, and their child is acting up/screaming, etc. -- and the parent doesn't even see/hear it.  Yet, they will always see it in others' children.

        Noting this made me look at my own children before (if) I speak up about others.

        by Shell on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 10:49:23 AM PDT

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        • Good Point! (0 / 0)

          I have witnessed this remarkable phenomenon too, and it never fails to amuse me.

          by Uhura on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:05:17 AM PDT

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        • My instant thought (0 / 0)

          when I read your comment is that not seeing some of our kids' most horrible traits/moments the way we see it in others' children, probably helps keep the human race going.

          Doesn't the same thing happen with dogs?  My neighbors have two dogs that bark as if they are being skinned alive, and yet, my neighbors have no idea their dogs bark.  WTF?

          Of course, if they did know or could really hear that incessant, horrifying noise, they would surely shoot them....jk....I love dogs, I really do....but these two...good grief....they would at least disown them.

          karen

          by karen m on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 04:18:51 PM PDT

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    • Is the converse true? (0 / 0)

      If your kid is very well-behaved and easy, is it because of what a great parent you are?

      Personally, there are some things I feel ok taking credit for and others I really can't.  My kids have really good "please and thank you" type manners.  I don't think that's their temperament, it's because DH and I taught them to do it and always insisted on it.  On the other hand, my kids are mostly great sleepers.  I really can't take credit for that, I don't claim to know anything more than anyone else about it, it's just how they are.

      I think with the good stuff and the bad stuff, there are things parents do influence and things they can't.

      by hazel on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 12:04:24 PM PDT

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  • Age (0 / 0)

    I've learned that temper tantrums, whining, crying, hitting, hair pulling, and biting are all normal actions of toddlers. DS has done all of the above. While I am mortified when he throws himself on the floor screaming (did this last week at my OB appointment...), I've learned that it too shall pass. He's a very physical kid and I've had a few friends joke that he's the bully of the bunch. I like to say he's, um assertive :) But whenever I see any inappropriate action I use it as a teaching moment. Right now we are still working on hair pulling is not nice.

    I've also noticed triggers. He is more likely to "act up" when he's tired or hungry. We've had a few disasterous playdates where I noticed he was not playing well with the other kids and I could tell the little dude was tired. So we ended the engagement early.

    Who is to blame for bad behavior? I am sure there are cases where what is going on at home contributes some, but I think its just the way their little brains are wired. I keep trying to get that message through to DH who gets really frustrated when DS acts up when he's over tired. Rather than get mad, I just grab DS and say, "Naptime!" and off we go.

    Jen in NJ

    by littlepear on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 09:53:00 AM PDT

  • wrote (0 / 0)

    I wrote about this recently on another thread, but this is one reason I wanted nothing to do with that co-op preschool we did for two weeks (dropped out for a multitude of reasons).

    I didn't want to see the kid who hit behind the easel the whole time, the girl who fell in the toilet, I didn't want to know that some kids cried for an hour, I didn't want to see the teachers say the kids did "great" when they didn't, I just didn't want to know.  And vice versa for my kids and other moms.

    For this question

    Do you consider it appropriate to discuss other people's children after a playdate or in a volunteering situation?

    No way!  Not appropriate.  Maybe schools like co-ops and other volunteer situations should debrief volunteer parents not to go blabbing their mouth around about other people's children?

    by NJmom on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 10:04:15 AM PDT

  • My Opinion Is.... (0 / 0)

    99.998% of the time, a child's behavior is a direct result of the type of parenting they receive.

    That being said-Like you, I would feel uncomfortable with another parent talking with me the way this person spoke with you. It's bad form-and ironically-it's probably the result of her parents' bad parenting. (LOL)

    by Uhura on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:04:02 AM PDT

    • How many children do you have? (0 / 0)

      Just curious :)

      I have two, and they are very different from each other in a lot of ways.  They have received the same parenting, but their behavior is often pretty different.  It's apparent to me that my influence on them is limited and probably not as influential as their inherent genetics.

      Parenting is important, but I think in a lot of ways kids come into the world the way they are and there is only so much parents can do to make them fit into a different box.

      Katherine

      by pat of butter in a sea of grits on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:19:44 AM PDT

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      • so true (0 / 0)

        my first two kids are maniacs, and i kept waiting for my last one to do difficult things, and she just doesn't.  she's lovely.

        like ali used to scream for hours every night at supper time- it lasted for months.  a few months after helen was born i waited for her to start to do it, but she just never did.  she's so sweet and easy going.

        if i ask helen to do something she says "ok mom" and if i ask ali to do something she says "yeah, but" and won't do anything

        when helen is tired she asks to go to sleep

        last night instead of going to sleep and still up at 10:30 ali went in the fridge, opened the costco jug of maple syrup, knocked it over, shut the refridgerator door, and didn't tell anyone there was a problem.  our landlords carpeted the kitchen to make it quieter for the downstairs neighbors, so i get to empty and move a fridge and shampoo a carpet tonight.

        and people who tell me "i just give my kids two choices and that's it" don't have any idea what it's like to have a kid who will lobby endlessly for a third choice

        we had the stomach flu last week, and ali asked me for a bucket.  so i brought her one, and she didn't like it.  so i brought her a pot from the kitchen, and she didn't like that.  so she lied there on the couch for a few more minutes and then threw up on herself.

        same gene pool, same environment, same parenting, two completely different people.

        by thankgodforairamerica on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:16:15 PM PDT

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        • Oh god (0 / 0)

          Maple syrup? In carpet? You poor thing.

          One of my girlfriend's children did a doozy. They were going camping, and she had bought 10 litres (ummmm about 2 and a half gallons) of cordial (like Cool-Aid).  This child took the lid off of EVERY bottle in the car and didn't say anything. The mom drove around a corner and all the bottles fell over. Still silence from the back seat. She realized there was a problem when she literally started splashing around in the stuff while changing gears.

          That was an expensive trip to the car cleaners...

          by aussieyank on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:20:22 PM PDT

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          • once she put hot dogs down the bath tub drain (0 / 0)

            i went to take a bath and i couldn't because she had gone in the fridge and got hot dogs and bit off circles of them and shoved them down into the drain as far as she could

            i went to the hardware store and bought a small plunger and the guy at the store said he had never, ever heard of a kid doing that, and he'd heard of everything.

            ali is in the living room screaming for no reason.  helen is holding my hand and giving a boo boo on my knuckle gentle kisses

            was that the beginning of the camping trip?  i hope it got better.  could you imagine if it went downhill from there?

            by thankgodforairamerica on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:33:18 PM PDT

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            • You know... (0 / 0)

              I never asked how the camping trip went after that... But part of me wonders just how well it could have gone if she was planning on her kids drinking ten litres of sugar and additives the whole time. I know it doesn't phase some kids, but my DD especially would have been spinning like a top!

              by aussieyank on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 05:43:22 PM PDT

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          • I have a friend whose toddler son (0 / 0)

            hid the car keys in the garbage disposal.

            by shenanigans on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:29:42 AM PDT

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      • same reaction (0 / 0)

        My two boys are so very different.  Birth order has something to do with it, but most of it is because they're just born how they are.  

        As a teacher, there were times when I'd meet parents and think "well, that makes perfect sense" since the kid's attitude/behavior clearly had a source.  There were others times when I was totally baffled that such thoughtful parenting could result in a kid with issues.  I think we like to blame it on parenting since then we think we could never have a kid "like that" and it's hard to admit that we can't control everything about our children's personality and development.

        by Treena on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 03:27:26 AM PDT

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      • The Number of Children I Have is Irrelevent (0 / 0)

        The number of children I have is irrelevent. Here's why: If I have more children than you, it doesn't give any more weight or validity to my statement that 99.998% of the time, a child's behavior is a direct result of the type of parenting they receive.

        When we don't exactly understand something or "cause and effect" are not completely clear in certain situations it does not mean that thing happens or happened "just because". A few hunderd years ago, folks didn't know about the bacteria, fungii, and viruses that caused illnesses. They came up with some wacky explanantions for illness too: curses, withcraft, disobedience to some diety, and the old reliable "sometimes these things just happen" i.e. "just because."

        I am not the type of woman who buys into the "just because" explanation and, in this case (the connection between parenting and behavior), I am definitely not buying it.

        Your statement about how different your children are from each other is a good springboard into this next statement I'll make:

        Within the general population (accounting for and excluding pathologies or certain other abnormalities) parental influence cannot be underestimated. In short: Parenting is key.

        The trick is to adjust your parenting in a way that addresses the differences in each child. If you are expecting a certain set of outcomes or a certain standard of behavior, you'll need to modify your parenting for 1) the child's temperment and 2) the situation (which includes your resources for punishment and reinforcement).

        Daycare center workers and teachers (the good ones) practice this very concept every day because they are dealing with several little personalities all at the same time.

        Of course, all of this is just my opinion.

        by Uhura on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:05:45 AM PDT

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    • any research to support (0 / 0)

      your "nurture" over "nature" belief?  Most of what I've read and observed strongly suggests it's a combination of the two.  Temperament research is especially enlightening on this subject.  As Shell noted, above, the same parents can have two very different kids.

      by mamacita on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:32:02 AM PDT

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      • We Don't Need Research-LOL! (0 / 0)

        We don't need research to tell us that the same parents can have two or three very different children.

        Let's take that as a given and move on to the next logical conclusion: We already know each of our children can be different. That does not negate the link between parenting and behavior.

        Our goal as parents should be to identify which parenting techniques work best to achieve the desired behavior outcomes with each of our children.

        by Uhura on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:09:30 AM PDT

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    • I think it's important to remember (0 / 0)

      Especially in the 0-5 years, that their brains are very, very different from adult brains. The brain of a 2 year old child looks like a schitzophrenic, with too many connections here there and everywhere.

      I think most little children, regardless of parenting, will have:

      • tantrums
      • biting
      • hitting
      • hair pulling
      • mean/rude days
      • screaming
      • ignoring
      • property destruction

      The question is, how does the parent (and other environment) react to shape the child into more socially acceptable behavior?

      Some kids will stop at the first correction. Some will stop at the 50th. Some will need to get older and need hundreds of patient corrections.

      by shenanigans on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM PDT

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      • And then there's the phases (0 / 0)

        For about three weeks in the recent past, DS was so naughty. Annoying, nagging, whining, disobedient, challenging, even rude. I found him incredibly hard to be around. Then one day he went back to normal. And, coincidentally, he grew about an inch-- his pants are all much shorter now. I associate the two events-- growing pains, fo sure.

        by minnmom on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 12:13:54 PM PDT

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    • I think it's both (0 / 0)

      I have definitely sometimes seen a cause-and-effect relationship between a certain behavior in a kid and the way they are parented.  Haven't you ever seen the bitchy over-entitled parents and their bitchy, over-entitled kids?  There has to be some sort of connection there.

      But, I also totally agree that much of the temperament of a child is set and you can't really change it.  My 2 kids are very different from each other.  Most of the people I know are great parents with the best of intentions who are trying to to the best for their kids, and of course their kids are not perfect all the time.  Some of them are more physical, more high-strung, more moody, more mellow, whatever.  Some kids are naturally more challenging than others.

      by hazel on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:57:25 AM PDT

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    • My mom thought she knew everything (0 / 0)

      about parenting. My older sister was "perfect." Never tantrumed, never fussed, always polite, agreeable, easy-going. My mom would look at other people's kids who acted up and feel really superior. Then she had me, put on this earth to teach her humility.

      Both my sister and I turned out to be nice, fun, high-achieving, normal kids and adults. But as babies, toddlers, and preschoolers, we couldn't have been more different.

      My friend has two kids. First kid, hellion. Scary smart troublemaker from day 1, almost. Second kid, mellow as the day is long. Sweet, clingy, shy. I think sometimes a kid's behavior is the result of parenting. Other times, it's the result of them being who they are.

      by minnmom on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 12:05:43 PM PDT

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    • not a tabula rasa (0 / 0)

      99.998%???  Really???  I know identical twins who are much further apart than that in their behavior.
       
      One of the great revelations of the second child always seems to be how different they are from the first.  Fortunately both of mine are well behaved, but I don't believe much of that is due to superior parenting skills.  They're just good boys.

      by lyn on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 06:01:16 PM PDT

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  • Funny, I was just talking to a friend about this (0 / 0)

    We have a mutual friend whose kids seem always seem to be sick.  Before she became a parent, my friend was sort of judge-y of this other friend, thinking, no one's kids could be that sick, she must be making it up or doing something wrong. Lo and behold, her exclusively-breastfed baby is on his fifth ear infection in three months and her husband has had to miss nearly a week of work in one month's time. She told me she realized it was probably karmic retribution for her lack of empathy.

    by minnmom on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 12:00:11 PM PDT

  • I've noticed a lot of women my age revert to (0 / 0)

    "before children" views.  They know a lot about kids "acting up".  In my day, blah, blah, blah.

    by OldMother on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 12:10:17 PM PDT

    • That is true (0 / 0)

      With time, many bad memories just disappear.

      With my own kids, I tend to remember good and bad.  But my children have reminded me of things I had forgotten.  Trust me -- they keep me honest.

      by Shell on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 03:01:12 PM PDT

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  • funny this came up (0 / 0)

    I had a really interesting discussion yesterday with some mums who have kids in Jess's swim class. (We all eat lunch afterwards. It's fun and cute.) Both mums are in the child-care biz - one is/was a teacher/principal at a primary school, the other works in a daycare centre. We got into a discussion about how we put adult expectations on children. Firstly, the whole "behave" thing - kids haven't even evolved the brain functions and often resort to physical demonstrations because they can't express the emotional yet.

    The more interesting part of the conversation then went on and we were talking about how we put expectations on kids that we wouldn't even apply to ourselves - like sharing and "being friends." One mum pointed out that we ask our kids to share everything all the time, but if someone came up to us and said, could you share your diamond engagement ring with me, we'd say "no" and no one would reprove us. Ditto being friends - we're not friends with everyone, but we have an expectation that in a group situation, our kids will get on with everyone and it's a bad thing if not.

    It's kind of a corollary to this discussion. I'm of the opinion that at ages 2-5, kids are going to express and act out nearly every emotion and power relationship known to man because their brains are developing and they're learning from scratch how to relate in one-on-one and group situations. To label a kid "bully" or "victim" or "good" or "bad" is often a self-fulfilling prophecy and that makes me uber uncomfortable.

    by Rachel on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 01:46:23 PM PDT

    • that's so true! (0 / 0)

      my friend's daughter was acting very territorial and she's only 20 months old so she would gently push my daughter away from some of her toys

      my friend was mortified, but i joked that if i went upstairs to her bedroom and started poking around thought her stuff she'd probably get fed up with me, too

      by thankgodforairamerica on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:22:38 PM PDT

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    • good points (0 / 0)

      A wise preschool director used to counsel the parents of shy kids that not every adult is crazy about going to cocktail parties, but when we take kids to nursery school and playdates and Gymboree that's in effect what we're doing.  I remember one parent arguing with her that she had taken her child to Disneyland and "the ingrate didn't have a good time."  I'm pretty sure if she took me to Disneyland I wouldn't have had a good time, either :)

      by mamacita on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:42:50 PM PDT

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      • no kidding! (0 / 0)

        so true. I think what I've learned most as a parent is that it's not about what the parent thinks the child wants/needs, it's about what the child actually wants/needs. It's an ongoing lesson in humility, I tell you!

        by Rachel on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 03:20:10 PM PDT

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      • Yikes (0 / 0)

        "The ingrate"?? Nice, very nice.
        Poor kid.

        by RachelD on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 08:16:28 PM PDT

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        • Hi Rachel (0 / 0)

          Good to see you.  Have you not been around, or has that been me?

          Sometimes the expectations parents have for their kids, or their limited ability to empathize, just amazes me.  I was working with a mother of a very aggressive boy recently, and as we went through the history there had been lots of moves, boarders and lovers moving in and out, getting fired, domestic violence.... She was complaining that he was peeing in his younger brother's potty seat and I was saying, considering his other issues, "Close enough!"  I talked about how sometimes when things are scary or chaotic, kids regress in areas like toilet-training.  Her response was, "This kind of sh%t happens all the time, he should be used to it."  I was so angry, I had to walk around the block to regain my composure (after she left).

          But you know what?  She's going to parent ed every week now, and her boy is thriving in his new classroom.  Sometimes good changes happen :)

          by mamacita on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 09:29:16 PM PDT

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      • introvert/extrovert kids (0 / 0)

        My husband and I both tend to be introverted, but then it does bother me a bit when my 3-year-old just wants to stay at home instead of going out and doing stuff.  I guess in some ways I want him to be different than me, but I'm learning to accept his personality and respect his preferences.

        The problem is that his 1-year-old brother is totally different!  So I have one kid I need to drag out the door every day, and the other gets so excited every time I walk near the door (often to get the mail, which is a huge letdown for him!).

        So it's hard to meet both their needs, but I guess it's easier to get out the door if I only have one kid who puts up a fight.

        by Treena on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 03:24:27 AM PDT

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        • once again Treena, just like us (0 / 0)

          I commented in the TV thread that your family sounds like mine - here's another example.  I have fond memories of my baby stretching to lean out of my arms every time I walked past the door, and this has not changed over the last 6 years.  3 introverts who are happiest noodling around the house, one "what are we going to do now?"  One jock who craves team membership - at age 3 he was begging for a real team with a real coach - and a younger brother who is dragged along to practices while frequently insisting, "remember, I'm not planning to play sports."

          It is a struggle to balance my elder son's constant need for activities with his brother's need for downtime.

          by lyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:55:04 AM PDT

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          • At least your older one is the extrovert (0 / 0)

            I sometimes wish their roles were reversed, because at least with the little one I could just pick him up and take him out the door.  I'm wondering what it's going to be like when my older kid is too big to physically carry out of the house.

            by Treena on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 04:47:04 PM PDT

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  • For a school to do this .... (0 / 0)

    ... is amazing to me.  (But not really, they do it often):

    I had a coworker with 3 children.  The older two were 2 years apart.  The oldest, a boy, had much trouble in school -- poor grades, behavior problems.  The younger of the 2, a girl, was "perfect" -- good grades, no behavior problems, in special "high grade" classes, etc.

    One month, she received the school's "best student" award, which I find a weird thing for a school to do anyway.  Along with the certificate, the school sent a personal letter to the parents .. it said that this was because of their great parenting skills.

    That same year, they had gotten another letter from the school, about their son.  It said he was having trouble because of their poor parenting skills.

    My friend and her husband just laughed -- and framed both letters.

    by Shell on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:53:35 PM PDT

Permalink | 49 comments