Mother Talkers

Hump Day Open Thread

Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:23:56 AM PDT

UPDATE: The United Health Care Workers of SEIU will hold a conference this Saturday in San Jose, Calif., which will include a great speaker: Elizabeth Edwards! I was invited to cover the speech, but am unable to attend. Would any of you like a press pass on behalf of MotherTalkers to hear Elizabeth speak? If interested, please e-mail me at elisa at mothertalkers dot com. And of course, don't forget to write a diary on it! Thanks, Elisa

What’s on my mind? Sleep woes. Always sleep woes. Lately, the culprits include not only the baby -- but Ari. Our sweet three-year-old is quickly becoming a belligerent four-year-old (Nov. 2) who fights us all the time: in the morning, at school, during dinner, and at bedtime.

Even worse, he demands that we sleep with him at night and then gets up in the middle of the night to come to bed with us. DH usually takes him back to bed and ends up sleeping the rest of the night with him.

Everything we said we would never do -- like coddle our kid in the middle of the night and co-sleep with him -- we do. We don’t know what else to do that would not involve two screaming children in the middle of the night.  

Most recently, Berkeley Parents Network had two letters in the same edition by the frazzled moms of four-year-olds. (Apparently, Ari’s behavior is not atypical of this age.) In one of the letters, the mom complained about her four-year-old waking up every night. But I did not like the advice, which was rather harsh. One mom set up a sleeping bag and allowed her daughter to sleep in her room, unless she made noise. If the mother woke up, she would kick out her daughter and lock the door.  (I can hear Ari’s wails now.)

The other mother sounded just as sleep deprived as me: She has a baby and gets into power struggles with her four-year-old in the middle of the night. (Exactly what I want to avoid.) She won’t let him in the bed before 5 a.m. and he cries. Two crying kids in the middle of the night sounds nightmarish to me, which is why I don’t want to go the “cry it out” route yet. Of course, if I was a perpetual zombie -- I am getting there -- I would probably go the route of these moms. For now, my husband and I wake up and constantly switch beds in the middle of the night. Sigh.

What’s up, MotherTalkers?

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Tags: sleep woes, baby, four-year-old (all tags)

Permalink | 91 comments

  • PP City Council Meeting (0 / 0)

    Ugh. I still feel gross from last night's meeting. DH, DD and I stayed for nearly 4 hours and never got to speak- we left with 2 hrs. of talking left to go and our names were so far down on the list it wasn't going to happen.

    The meeting was horribly demoralizing. 12 people spoke in support of Planned Parenthood and 46 people spoke against it. (There were also 3 people who were either neutral or I couldn't figure out what they were talking about.) Somehow, all these people from the same street signed up to talk first. I wish I had just gone to the rally outside because inside? They'd quote facts that weren't true, kept saying "the majority of the citizens don't want PP" with no real back up of numbers, and they all had these well crafted talking points.

    The truth of it is, I'm not 100% sure PP was above the board in their dealings. I want to believe they were, but yesterday the other side started bringing up how PP filed as a for-profit (with Gemini) and then occupied as a non-profit and didn't do some procedure thing and it's like... what if that is true? Now it's possible I've been indoctrinated because you heard the same fricking words over and over and over and over again, but it's hard, because I want PP there, I believe they SHOULD be there, but if they f-ed this up, I'll be so mad. I really will.

    It was so insulting to have this one doctor go up there and be all "Edwards Hospital provides all the same services except abortion" without saying "oh, and if you don't have insurance it's a ridiculous amount of money, sorry." It was intellectual dishonesty. So annoying, hard and exhausting. All I did was sit and I walked out EXHAUSTED.

    I seriously don't know what the heck to do next. I'm wondering if we don't need to canvas the neighborhood with petitions so that these claims of "the majority don't want them there" can be refuted. Oh, there was also a speaker who said that PP was responsible for targeting minorities and trying to get rid of them through abortion. Oh. My. And this STUPID woman in her dumb shirt in front of me turns to my husband and says "you should do your research" and waves around a print out from the internet. He just laughed but they were all so serious.

    Now they want the building bull dozed. They want it a flat parking lot- don't even want it to be sold. They want it to be a total monetary loss for PP. As for what the City Council can do, I think they will be pretty well stuck following whatever the independent council says, though if they try to hold a vote on it, we'll really have to get Aurora petitions going because the anti-choicers are better organized, they are tight-knit and well grouped together and they again dominated the council meeting. It's frightening.

    • Oh my goodness (0 / 0)

      Thank you for fighting the good fight. The meeting sounds awful, but I'm glad you were there to hold up the other side. Perhaps supporters who were unable to attend can send letters and otherwise show their support to change the tide.
    • Yikes (0 / 0)

      Good for you. It takes a lot of committment to do what you're doing.

      Have you talked directly to PP about the contract? From what you have written before, they may have fudged the original proposal. OTOH, I don't trust most media in this kind of controversy to even get the basic facts right - not on purpose, but because they are listening to the wrong sources.

      PP probably already has materials you could use, or I hope a plan, to counter all of this.

      And FWIW, the demographic that has the most abortions is white middle class college educated women. Not minorities. I wish I had current stats for that, but it's been true since the early 20th century, when abortion first became controversial. Before then, it was not.

      RachelD

      • Good resource for statistics (0 / 0)

        On Why Women Have Abortions:

        http://www.gutmacher.org/...

        The pdf listed at the beginning of the article is very useful. Around half already have children. Three quarters cited responsibilities (financial or otherwise) to other family members as a reason they could not take on another child.

        Of course, Planned Parenthood provides health care with sliding scale fees to women of all ages, and also does cancer screening, prenatal care, postpartum care, menopausal care, and everything else an OB-GYN might do. Abortion is only a tiny part of their services - it's just that so few other providers remain that they seem to be such a dominant abortion provider.

      • Geeze that's tough (0 / 0)

        I would want to hear exactly about how PP handled the contract before I stuck my neck out for them.  On the same token the anti-PPs sound like creeps.  I can understand wanting to back PP but I've also been let down in the past by institutions I've trusted.  Good luck.

    • man that sounds depressing (0 / 0)

      I'm so glad you all went.  I imagine you represented a lot of people who didn't show up.  And even though you didn't get a chance to speak, at least that lady who gave your DH a hard time knew you didn't agree with her.  That's gotta count for something.

      It's so demoralizing to be surrounded by the half-truths and innuendo and seeing that it works.  Thanks for your gumption.

  • what's on my mind (0 / 0)

    is religion at work.  I came in to the lounge the other day and there was a xerox taped to the table.  It looked like one of those emails that circulates endlessly.  This one was about a meeting of the Kansas state senate, which someone opened by saying, "If you can believe it, there are still some people who don't like prayer.  Well that's too bad, because I'm going to pray right now."  It went on at length about all this person's personal religious beliefs -- including a comment about "killing unborn babies and calling it choice" -- which he apparently unburdened himself of during a state-funded government meeting.

    It bugged me that this happened in Kansas, and it bugged me that it was taped to the table, like some kind of thumbing of the nose to the secular nature of OUR workplace (which is also publicly funded).  I wrote a note on the bottom of it to that effect -- that this isn't the appropriate place to express those views -- but it wasn't removed.  After a few days of seeing it there, I got so exasperated that I shredded it.  The weird part is I'm pretty sure the site supervisor put it there, so people who may have objected to the views might not have wanted to speak up to avoid bugging her.  That seems like a subtle misuse of power -- though I know she didn't mean any harm.

    If I had put up a polemic about global warming, Iraq, George Bush, or anything else, I know some people in my workplace would have been offended.  It's not the place for it, and I wouldn't want to make my co-workers uncomfortable.  Was I wrong to shred what to me was an offensive prayer?

    • I don't think you were wrong... (0 / 0)

      I think if you're offended, you have the right to do something about it. Speak up (which you did, by writing your thoughts on that paper), then eventually get rid of the offensive prayer.

      This reminds me of a similar moment when I was completely offended. I was sitting in the lunch room at work and was talking to a co-worker. Somehow, the topic of the Gay Pride parade came up. She said, "WE need to pray for THEM, because THOSE people aren't happy." I said, "who's to say that THOSE people aren't happy? I happen to know a lot of them and they're quite happy. You should really be careful what you say and who you say it to. For all you know, I could be one of THOSE people."

      Ugh. Ignorance.

    • You're better than me (0 / 0)

      I'd have set fire to it and then shredded it.  

      Pray all you want but shut up about it.  Heck, I'm praying right now but I'm not taping up stuff bragging about it.  Prayer is quiet and reflective...not emailed and taped up places.  

      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly"

      by lonestar canuck on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 10:29:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • I don't think so (0 / 0)

      It was clearly inappropriate for the workplace. The reason I come down on the side of toss or shred is that peeps who put this stuff out in the workplace rely on the rest of us to be basically overly polite. Or they are looking for an argument. Forget about that. Polite, fine, but overly polite in the face of what I think is rudeness in the first place - nah.

      It's not like you went to everyone and demanded to know who put it there, made a big scene, or left the pile of shredded paper on the table with a note that said "pray for this, sucka".  It was there for a few days, everyone got a "chance" to read it, and the person who left it there got their jollies knowing everybody read it.

      I would have done the same thing.

      RachelD

    • Wowza. (0 / 0)

      That is seriously inappropriate. You have a lot more patience than I do.

      I got angry at the meeting last night (for the 457th time) when one of the pro-life ladies ended her three minutes with a recitation of Hail Mary. Mary and I? We're tight. I'm good with Jesus. We got our thing. You don't own religion and you don't own MY FAVORITE PRAYER because you're anti-choice peeps. AAUURRRGGGGHHHHHHH.

    • I'd be livid (0 / 0)

      Work isn't the place for it, especially publically funded work.  I think you stayed pretty calm.

    • similar story, happier ending (0 / 0)

      Someone put a stack of those "repent" type of brochures out around Easter at the PBS station I worked at.  They were slick full-color brochures that I imagine their church supplied.

      I complained to the head of the station and he agreed they should be removed (and he's a Baptist preacher's son).

    • Supervisors should know much better (0 / 0)

      When I hear things like this I'm so glad we moved to this hellhole and away from DH's old job in IN.  I probably would have been arrested for killing someone with a steak knife at the Christmas party after they started going on about dangerous liberals...

      But your anecdote upsets me, too, because don't you work in children's services?  I'm pretty sure part of the reason the social workers thought it was a good idea to take my baby was because I told them I didn't go to church and I wished it was financially feasible for my ex-gf and her wife to adopt him.  If they didn't want to know, they shouldn't have asked!

      My new England upbringing leads me to feel that discussing politics in the workplace is rude.  Why potentially offend your colleagues for no work-related reason?

      • I do work with kids (0 / 0)

        but rest assured, no one in my office is in a position to take anyone's kid.  (We're a school district, not social services.)  It's more of a nuisance than something that would truly alarm me. It was kind of a shock to see it, because this is the place where people post union notices, harmless office jokes, and "Help yourself to the donuts" notes, not diatribes.

        It totally sucks that someone might make a judgement on your lifestyle that would affect your family formation.  I'm so sorry that happened to you.

        As for politics at work, I discreetly found a couple of like-minded people I can blow off steam with now and then.  I let a couple of people know I might show up in a black armband if Bush won in '04, but I didn't.  I know there are people of all persuasions there and I agree it's polite to keep to neutral topics.

    • NO (0 / 0)

      your weren't wrong. But I would mention it to maybe an HR person or something. It really wasn't appropriate for the poster to do.

    • I've experienced that (0 / 0)

      When I was at the Catholic school there was one teacher who was kind of fundie in her beliefs.  She came to Catholicism after being somewhat pentecostal and retained a lot of those beliefs.  I used to throw out stuff like that behind her back all the time when she would leave it out in the teacher's room.

      Oddly enough she was a lovely person and we were friends otherwise but I didn't share her beliefs.

      • thanks everyone (0 / 0)

        I know I over-reacted when I first saw it -- I was really angry about the abortion comment, but I also knew I was generally pissy.  So I just kept my mouth shut and let it be for a bit.  By the time I shredded it I felt calm, but later I wondered if it was reasonable.

    • No! (0 / 0)

      I would have quietly recycled it when I first saw it.  I would also let HR or an ombudsman know.  A public workplace isn't the spot to expose personal beliefs.

  • I think PMS is contagious (0 / 0)

    or at least this wildly bitchy feeling I'm having.  I had a question to ask of a governmental body yesterday and her answer (which basically implied that it was a dumb question) is really chapping my ass.   Really.  I feel like smacking people.  I couldn't resist asking a woman a snarky question on a yahoogroup today when I should have just sat on my hands...

    I think I may need to start drinking early today...

    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly"

    by lonestar canuck on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 10:32:03 AM PDT

  • Oh, and about sleeping (0 / 0)

    we ended up just buying a king size bed so we'd all be comfortable when the kids travel at night.  After 9 years at this parenting thing we've slept all over with them and without them and it's really, really okay.  My 9 year old now goes to bed on her own and sleeps through the night in her own bed (unless she has a nightmare) and I want to go back in time and shake myself for all the stupid arguments I had with her trying to get her to go to bed on her own at 3 years old.  

    I know that some people can't sleep if there's a child in the room but if you can and if it lets everyone get some sleep then it's better than being right or than following the "sleep experts" advice.   They don't co-sleep forever.  

    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly"

    by lonestar canuck on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 10:35:43 AM PDT

    • we only recently stopped (0 / 0)

      playing musical beds.  For a while we had a mattress on the floor in DS's room in case he wanted someone to sleep with him, and then for a while we had a mattress on the floor in the living room.  It was just supposed to be there until someone could pick it up after we got a new mattress, but it ended up lingering as "the hippie pad."  Every night one or two of us spent at least time some sleeping there.  Snoring, insomnia, wanting a cuddle (or something).... We all loved it and we all also acknowledged that it was clashing with our collective aspiration to live in a grown-up house :-)

      • I usually joke (0 / 0)

        that I never know where I'm going to wake up and it's a little like university in that respect....you should have seen the look on my mother's face when I made that joke last.  

        Yeah, it would be nice if we could have the kids from tv where you just turn off the light and they go off to dreamland on their own and you go down to your Pottery Barn decorated living room and drink a glass of wine and have adult conversation with your Clooneyesque husband...and don't actually spend the evening figuring out how you're going to make the last $35 in your bank account pay both the hydro bill and the groceries...

        "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly"

        by lonestar canuck on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 10:48:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • We did that for years. (0 / 0)

      Bottom line, we had to sleep at night.  If that meant that a child crawled in bed, so be it.  

      It got better when the older kids became targets for the younger kids...for years, when I'd get the older kids up in the morning, I'd find one of the younger ones in bed with them.  Often times, this wasn't even initiated by the younger child...I'd hear older ones go and ask one of the others to sleep with them.

      • That is so cute n/t (0 / 0)

      • I DID that! (0 / 0)

        one of my brothers is 7 years younger than me.  when he was first born he slept in my room with me.  then we moved and we each had our own rooms. he'd pad down to my room late at night and crawl in with me.  and if he didn't come in i would go get him.  i think that went on for some time.

        as for 4 year olds.  even though my dd was the beastly baby from hell, i still view 4 as the one year i really was not totally thrilled by. even though she was a challenging baby i enjoyed her. at 4?  not so much.  perhaps it was that freud thing..but i was definitely the evil step mother.  we read a TON of evil step mother fairy tales which i swear helped.  she even proclaimed she wanted to marry daddy.  ok that part was cute.  my brother went through same thing with his son at age 4...4 was challenging for him too.

        as for sleeping arrangements?  i let her have a sleeping bag by our bed.  if she was in need she was allowed to sleep there.  but i didn't do the co sleeping in bed...between her thrashing and dh's snoring there was no sleep with that arrangement!

      • My only note is that it passes (0 / 0)

        Our parents, the pre school teachers, and others were horrified, but it worked for us.

        Until age 4 we had a cot in our room where our son slept.  Then we got him a big bed, and laid down until he was asleep.

        When our daughter was born, I don't think she spent more than an hour in her crib till 18 months.  I held her till 2 in the morning, then put her into bed.  She would wake up an hour later and Kate would take over.

        At 18 months we decided it was time.  Every night she screamed till she puked.  We cleaned her up, changed the sheets, and put her back to bed.  Finally, after a week (one night she threw up ON me) she figured out that this was no fun and went to sleep

        That worked till she outgrew the crib.  She would not stay in her bed.  Finally, we got a full sized bed, and I stayed with her till she was asleep.

        In all, between the 2 kids, it was 8 years of no sleep.  Finally, at ages 8 and 5, everything is working.  

        The point is that you don't have to be draconian.  Find a solution that works for you.  Then every three months test.  Are they ready to be on their own.  Every kid is different, and you know yours better than anyone

  • Sleep. I'm for it. (0 / 0)

    Personally, I was willing to do pretty much anything to get whatever scraps of sleep I could. If it works, it works. Don't feel guilty, as long as you're making the decision for yourself and not what you think other people think you should do.
  • Your sleeping arrangement sounds (0 / 0)

    a lot like what we did.  When Madeline was a baby, DH frequently went in to Grants room to sleep when he woke up.  We did the sleeping bag too.  But, I didn't care if Grant woke me when he came in.  I was so tired, I slept right through it most of the time.  

    I think four is a tough age... at least for my kids.  I know what you mean about belligerent.  Some days I am so tired of dealing with Madeline and I don't even have a baby to take care of!  I am hoping preschool will mellow her like it did for Grant.  

    On my mind today.... our UU church's RE classes.  Apparently enrollment is way up this year, causing a bit of overcrowding.  We have almost 20 kids registered for the preschool class.  It gets kind of crazy in there with that many kids.  Possible solutions:  splitting the classes up between the 9am and 11am services, recruiting more teachers, and/or capping enrollment.

    "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

    by 1plain1peanut on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 10:40:41 AM PDT

  • re: Sleep (0 / 0)

    We've had a lot of trouble with sleep and our daughter, now 8, over the years.  Or I should say we'll have periods of great trouble and periods where it's great.  Changes seem to set her off, and she has an anxiety disorder so that can sometimes effect her sleep.  Right now, with me being pregnant and school starting back up, she's been having trouble again.  Sleeping in our room, refusing to fall asleep in her room, waking up with "nightmares" (possibly she's having them or else she's just waking but unable to go back to sleep) and keeps coming into our room and waking us up.  Usually, we can let her do these things and in a week or two she's back in her room again, but it's been almost a month now, so it has to stop.

    We had a family meeting about it and discussed a plan where she can earn a reward for sleeping in her room again.  After 15 nights where she goes to sleep in her room without fighting about it, she'll earn a reward.  She got to choose the reward, and she chose a DVD.  It's only been two nights but it's been no problem at all, even though just the day before she was going on and on about being too scared to be in her room by herself, and even too scared to sleep on our floor (as opposed to IN our bed) because she's afraid of Voldemort or other unknown evil forces.  (I curse her summer day care program for showing HP movies on rainy days....)

    Oh, and I just remembered that we did this when she was four, too.  We moved to our new house, and with the adjustment she was refusing to sleep in her room.  I thought she'd adjust in time, but it went on far too long.  We did the same reward thing (suggested to us by the psychologist we were currently seeing for her anxiety) and it worked like a charm.  We bought her a doll, which was her reward of choice.  So, perhaps Ari is not too young to bribe like this.  ;-)  She would have been a few months over four at the time.  

    Nola

  • Ack! (0 / 0)

    I'm worried about the sleep thing, too.  Between the ages of 1.5-2.5, we had Simone doing so well.  We read her a story, said goodnight, and in bed she stayed.  All this established with relatively little fuss and muss.  Then the truck through the house thing happened.  You'd think if we'd done it once, we could do it again?
    No.  

    Ever since then, it's been rocky, and I'm worried about when the baby comes.  Jeremy has to sit with her for at least an hour most nights at bedtime, and she comes to sleep with us pretty frequently.  I don't really mind that, but I am worried about fitting four in a bed when the baby comes.  But the fact is, we could probably do something about it.  We're just not willing to take such harsh measures as the woman you wrote about who locks her child out of the room and listens to him scream.  Frankly, I prefer this to that.  And, like Shenanigans, in the middle of the night I'm going to take the option that lets me get back to sleep ASAP.

    I'd like to think perhaps I'm in labor.  We shall see.  I'm having mild contractions, and I think Simone was born at the tomorrow stage of that pregnancy.  I'd take it as a good omen if he came on the same timeline as Simone.  She was an angel baby!

  • 4 year old boys (0 / 0)

    Are so delicious, aren't they?  It's very hard to kick them out of bed.

    I am happy to report that Eli, who crawled into bed with us nearly every night for the past, oh, two years or so? is now sleeping soundly through the night in his own bed on a regular basis.

    It will happen for you, too. But I do feel for ya because of the baby.  Eli is our youngest and Miles never had this habit, so I can't imagine what that's like!

  • All of this talk about sleep and kids (0 / 0)

    Reminds me of a book called Sleepless in America.  I know it's been mentioned here before.  I have not read it yet.  Would anyone be interested in this as a MotherTalker book discussion?

    "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

    by 1plain1peanut on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:19:36 PM PDT

  • Sinus Infection (0 / 0)

    So on Monday when I posted that I had a cold I was hoping I'd be feeling better. No such luck. Things only got worse. When I woke up Tuesday I realized it was a sinus infection and called my Doc ASAP. A script for some antibiotics and a day later I am already feeling better.

    DS has his 3rd day of nursery school (its only once a week), and the teacher told me he did well for the first hour, but then melted down after that for the remaining half hour. Next week is supposed to be two hours, but she thinks he might not be ready for it. So, if I'm feeling better later in the week I might try to schedule a playdate with of his classmates. It seemed to help last time we did it.

    • Yucko (0 / 0)

      I swear I would rather have my teeth drilled than get a sinus infection.  It seriously screws me up.  I have no energy and want to sleep all the time.  And the pain...argh!

      I hope you get over your soon now that you've got antibiotics.

      "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" ~Mike Meyers

      by 1plain1peanut on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 01:29:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • Sad days (0 / 0)

    Morning sickness lies after all.  We went for the second sono yesterday, and there was no heartbeat.  Had a D&C last night.  So I won't be joining the spring baby boom after all.

    I'm so tired...

  • Full moon or whatever... (0 / 0)

    ...I'm completely worried about Al Gore's speech to the UN. I'm feeling sick to my stomach about the planet, with our 23 years until the polar ice cap melts. Thinking about where to live if cars wont be available, etc...

    I'm trying to get my mind around what global Marshall Law would be. If Al thinks it's necessary (and it seems like it is, after that horrid IPCC report last week), then I'm ready to get ready, but what to do?

    Oh yeah, and we're having all the same sleep issues as everyone else with 4-yr-olds and babies. We're doing the musical bed thing every night, too. I'm wondering how people once survived without both pullups and washing mashines, as well.

  • Sleep (0 / 0)

    It's a tough one, isn't it?  

    Our 3 year old slept with us until just recently.  We were just about to get a king size bed when she started requesting the floor versus our bed.  I think she was just too squished!  We made a cozy bed on our floor for a couple nights, then moved her mattress to our room and finally her kid bed.  She sleeps in our room in the kid bed and has been doing great.  We lay down with her as she falls asleep and help her at night should she wake.

    Our room is pretty hilarious looking with 2 adults, 1 3 year old 1 3 month old, and a golden retriever.  It makes our 1400 plus sq home seem palatial ;-)

    • You know, now that I'm thinking about it, (0 / 0)

      my bedroom is still quite the hangout in my house.  My kids don't sleep with us now, obviously, but, if I'm up here, you can bet a couple of them are hanging out, too, and there will be others milling around.  Its like the second family room.

  • Bill Mahr (0 / 0)

    Just came across this but haven't watched it  yet. From the WMST-L list serv:

    Someone just sent me the link to this Bill Maher rant on feminism. Never = a great friend of women, Maher's eight minutes or so gets to the = underbelly of how "liberal" men really think about feminism. I am going = to use this in my feminist theories class as I am interested to see what = students make of it.=20

    http://www.youtube.com/...

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