Mother Talkers

A teacher who's a creationist - Update

Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 02:40:46 PM PDT

Supak, in this diary on DailyKos, discusses his reaction to the news that his son's independent study teacher is a new-earth creationist (i.e. he believes that the earth is only 6000 years old).

The teacher sent Supak an email saying he hoped the two could have a productive relationship despite their disagreement.  Supak posts that email and his response email in the linked diary.

It included the following paragraph:

I used to be very considerate of people with opinions like yours. However, since George W. Bush has effectively ruined the future of this country by saddling our children with debt, spending 600 billion dollars on a war based on lies that has made the whole world hate us even more and made us less secure, ignoring climate change and even worsening it, belittling scientists within (and outside of) the government by politicizing and censoring their work, and calling people like me traitors and a terrorist sympathizers, I am a very angry person indeed. Honestly, I never was before. But now I look at every Bush voter with anger. The theocratic takeover of the Republican party has been a disaster for those of us who want to live in a world where facts and science are the most important part of policy and decision making. The founding fathers of this country were deists, yet even they would be shocked to see what this group of leaders have done.

What would you do if you found yourself in a similar situation?

UPDATE: The teacher's response is here.  The teacher made a defense of his positions and also states,

Do not expect to change your mind, or Spencer's.  But if allowed, I will show him the other side of the coin.  I am very familiar with evolution and have read much about it, having been educated in California.

Politics is an uncomfortable topic for me.  Since I came of voting age, I have not had a candidate I could fully support; so I hold my nose and vote.  

Tags: teachers, evolution, creationism, school (all tags)

Permalink | 38 comments

  • I guess I'll answer myself (0 / 0)

    My tendency in such a situation would probably be to be vigilant but try to lay off a direct confrontation if possible at the beginning of the school year.  In other words, I probably wouldn't send an email such as the one he posts.

    Looking back, I had some teachers who were fundamentalist, and in some cases they were pretty batty and didn't keep their views to themselves.  For example, I had an Algebra II teacher who - I am not making this up - "chased the devil" out of our classroom one morning with a broom when the students were not performing well.  (The poor performance didn't have anything to do with her teaching, of course; it was that dang devil causing us to fail.)

    While I would prefer that my children be taught by freethinking people who accept science, the flip side is that the occasional challenge to one's beliefs can provide the opportunity to think about and strengthen them.  I don't think that one nutty teacher is going to turn my kids against me.

    At the same time, however, you have to be vigilant, I think, that what is going on in the classroom is appropriate.  Teachers should for the most part be keeping their political and religious views mostly to themselves.  In a situation like the above I'd want to talk to my kids regularly to make sure that he/she didn't step over the line.

    But the bottom line is that you want to have a productive relationship with the teacher, and it doesn't seem to me that going off on them on the very first day of school is a good way to achieve that.

    • I agree (0 / 0)

      I'd be very reluctant to alienate someone who was going to spend a great deal of time with my kid.

      I would also be vigilant about what is being taught.  I have often used the phrase, "Some people believe..." to talk about different ways of looking at the world, and I'd probably use it with regard to this teacher, since we don't believe the same things.  But, if s/he were competent in the subjects and not a proselytizer, I would probably lay off.  People are entitled to their own opinions and I think teaching respect for them is a good thing.  I've heard / read several very bright and literate creationists.  If nothing else, they show how to argue a point, which is a great way to learn how to think thoroughly.

      Now, if a physician who was thinking of treating my child didn't believe in evolution, I wouldn't be so sanguine.  In some professionals I do need to know there's a healthy respect for science that's compatible with my view of the world.  

      • I've actually had an Amish doctor, (0 / 0)

        and my present family care doctor is what most of us would no doubt term a "fundamentalist".  However, both had proper respect for the science behind their practice, so I never had a problem.  

        • can't remember where I was reading (0 / 0)

          recently about a conversation between two scientists? doctors? and one believed the earth was 6,000 years old and did not believe in evolution.  The other person pointed out that he had watched virus strains mutate, and had in effect seen evolution occurring before his very eyes.  But the creationist had an alternative explanation for that.  I can't remember what it was -- this low b.p. is really messing with my thinking these days -- but I remember thinking, I wouldn't want him treating me or mine, because it wasn't very satisfying.

          I guess if someone was treating my son, especially for something viral that could potentially mutate, I would feel better knowing s/he shared the scientific community's understanding of that process.  I am not an empiricist about everything but some things I do believe have been proven (or, repeatedly observed to be true), and I think science can take care of certain conditions better than religious belief.

          I think the main thing is feeling confident in whoever you place your trust in.  There are wonderful healers in all traditions.

          • Ugh...the low blood pressure... (0 / 0)

            Have you forgot your own phone number yet?

            I always had a feeling my Amish doctor was really rather agnostic, to be honest.  He had such a wonderful liberal outlook on life, however, that I felt really kind of at home.  He treated a lot of aging hippies at the time, so I guess I wasn't the only one!

            • I swear I cannot think straight! (0 / 0)

              I'm seeing another doctor tomorrow.  My doctor agreed with me that I'm not dehydrated, then recommended I come in to his office for IV fluids.  Huh?  I know I'm confused, but that just does not make any sense to me at all.

  • I have to say (0 / 0)

    I read the teacher's email and supak's entire response, and I found supak's letter to be an entirely offensive over-reaction. The teacher's email was self-effacing, polite, tolerant and concilliatory, and he was completely blasted in response. He calls his response 'fair minded,' but my summation of this email would be, "Thank you for trying to be reasonable with me, but I am too angry to stop myself from launching a tirade in your direction."

    The whole point of this wonderful social experiment called America is that you can believe what ever you want and still be afforded a modicum of respect. It may not always play out that way, but that is the grand design.

    We have much to learn from people with whom we disagree, but it won't happen if we don't let it.

  • Exposure to different views (0 / 0)

    I don't know that I have a problem with my child being exposed to a different POV, so long as the facts are being presented as well.  It serves DD poorly to be sheltered from debate.  We can't argue on one hand against book burning/banning from school libraries, and then try to ban POVs we don't agree with.

    As passionate a liberal Dem as I am, I just could not send this email.  Its just too abrasive, too confrontational.  I work with the military, and believe me, I run into my share of Rethugs.  There is a time and a place.  If I have to work with the people (and you definitely have to work with your child's teacher!), I'm not going to get into these issues.  There is no benefit.

  • What is "independent study" school? Public? (0 / 0)

    If it's a public school, the teacher's beliefs should not appear during the school day. If it's private, that's to be expected.
    The email was a rant, which should have been more strenuously edited before sending to the teacher. It seemed aimed at picking a fight, rather than resolving a conflict.
    That said, however, as a parent, I would have a difficult time respecting that teacher's pedagogy for the remainder of the school year. I would feel the need for constant vigilance against belief-creep, and would want to visit the classroom several times throughout the year, particularly during science education.

  • Yes, this child isn't a small child, correct? (0 / 0)

    Old enough to know if his teacher starts spouting off Biblical points during lesson time, I think.  Therefore, I'd just watch, and probably advise my child that the teacher might have some beliefs that are different than ours.

    For some reason, when my younger kids were in elementary school, there seemed to be a clustering of teachers who were Jehovah's Witness.  For that reason, the kids got no real holiday celebrations.  I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but plenty of parents were not too happy.

  • I don't see how this was constructive (0 / 0)

    While I don't believe my students have a right to know my political views and I certainly do not make them known to them, I don't see how a parent sending an e-mail like this could ever accomplish anything in the interest of the child.

  • Wow (0 / 0)

    As long as the teacher wasn't spouting off his views in class, then I would never write a letter like that.  Totally inappropriate.  The teacher is entitled to believe what he or she wants to believe.  

    Is there more to this story that I am missing?  How does this parent even know that the teacher is a creationist?

  • In high school.. (0 / 0)

    my biology teacher refused to teach evolution for similar reasons.  No one really questioned why she never had an evolution lecture, we just knew we would never get one.

    Needless to say, I am now going to be beginning my PhD in Biological Oceanography.  I took an evolution class as soon as I got to college, so I could be more educated.  It has never really impacted me or my learning one way or another.  I think that we should be taught evolution in the classroom, but I think people can teach themselves as well.

    I would hold my own evolution class with my child if my kid had this teacher.  I am sure there are information packets and books we could read together.  Could be a fun bonding experience too.

  • who does this serve? (0 / 0)

    I don't know what Supak and his wife were trying to achieve with that e-mail. I found the teacher's note to be fair minded and intended to reassure him that despite differing views, the pupil would get a teacher who emphasized "critical thought and appropriate skepticism."

    I think there's a time and a place to make a public stance and raise the sturm und drang, but in this case, I don't think this benefits anybody - particularly the pupil in question.

    To answer the question, I'd take your tack, pat of butter, and be vigilant but not confrontational, particularly if the situation doesn't warrant it.

    • I read down the comments (0 / 0)

      The diarist seems to be looking for a fight with this teacher.  He's trying to get him to divulge his political beliefs in more detail so that he can then demand his son receive another teacher.

      Ugh I would be so mad at a parent doing that to me in any scenario.  I can imagine I'm not a right-winger's dream but I would also get mad at someone who is more of my stripe nosing around where he doesn't belong.

    • Weighing in (0 / 0)

      I was going to write a whole new comment, but I couldn't have said this better myself, so I am just going to agree with Rachel.

    • Unproductive (0 / 0)

      The letter is completely off topic.  Not effective communication, and it doesn't even seem like it's attempting to be.  Rather, the writer seems to be saying "I hate your kind and fully intend to blindly lash out at anyone I think may support George Bush."  Which I understand, but if you actually want to open the doors to an effective exchange of ideas (and with your child's teacher, what else would you want to do?) this would be so pointless.  I'm not crazy about Bush supporters, but when I see a polite, thoughtful republican and a hysterical, unreasonable liberal (it doesn't happen that often) it makes me cringe.  I really prefer it when we are the ones who can stay calm and reasoned.  Which sort of goes hand in hand with wanting one's child's education based on the most convincing scientific research, doesn't it?

  • thought I was going to side with Dad (0 / 0)

    But after reading the comment, two reactions come to mind:

    1. Yep. Totally over the top. Agreed.
    1. I completely understand the reaction and have the same violent reaction these days to the smallest mention of creationism in a teacher. Didn't use to be the case, but I think culturally we have just HAD it. Those gaskets have to blow somewhere and in this case it blew at this nice but ultimately uninformed teacher.

    I teach college biology in louisiana, and let me tell you, these kids have never had a science teacher that didn't believe in creationism. It's scary. They have no idea what the difference is between science and belief. A lot of them are in my class to be science teachers precisely because they'd like to fight against the evil that is evolution.

    I am so anxious about what this means for the country.

    if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

    by thais on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 08:01:59 AM PDT

    • wow... (0 / 0)

      What a valuable perspective you are bringing.  

      I suppose I would be less patient with this teacher's approach if I was worried that evolution is being seriously (and systematically?) challenged within the science or science teaching community, as you seem to indicate here.  That is scary.

      I have a natural suspicion towards Republicans and fundamentalists, so thinking about a coordinated attack on evolution makes me wonder who would benefit.  What do you think?  Is there some financial gain, social control, or ??? connected with undermining our belief in science?

      • not exactly coordinated (0 / 0)

        more like a product of the culture wars. Here it goes along with the Republican worldview which is synonymous with being a christian and a patriot. It's just... common. The Way It Is. And I think it doesn't have to come from the republican party, because it is very well coordinated by the churches, who also have political rallies and pray for George Bush (and EVERYONE goes to church, like, except us).

        It's as though the idealism of college students is still there, it's just that instead of fighting the Man they're fighting the Liberal. And they have no idea what they're doing.

        It only takes a few weeks to get us over the evolution hump in class... the details pile up and it gets hard, like algebra, and they figure out that evolution is not a plot. well, for some. I've been nearly sued by others by failing them for giving creationist answers on tests.

        So education is the key.

        I mean, really. Nobody would stand for a Jew teaching a class on religion and refusing to teach the New Testament because they didn't believe in it, would they?

        And last year, someone got kicked out of our notable Teacher Education Program for ratting on a high school teacher prosleytizing in class... this university didn't let her graduate.

        And my husband, who is training to be a music teacher, had his professor the other day say "I know nobody in here thinks it's right, but you can't talk about Jesus in class, because you just can't, even though we all talk about Jesus all the time". He was floored.

        Sorry. I could keep going.

        if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

        by thais on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 01:51:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • I was ready to agree too (0 / 0)

      but he was out of line, agreed.

      But I wouldn't have my kid in this class anymore. Maybe that makes me ultra-reactionary, but I'd say thanks, but no thanks. No, I don't want you teaching my kid what I think is a religious belief. I'll take her to church, to temple, to wherever, to get that education.

      But if allowed, I will show him the other side of the coin.  I am very familiar with evolution and have read much about it, having been educated in California.

      See, no. I don't want to allow it. It has no educational value, IMO. I also don't want a teacher to teach my kid about the virgin birth or the Crucifiction, two religious beliefs I happen to hold.

      I'm already anticipating having to curb my attitude about scholastic studies when it comes to history class- when DD has her first "Thanksgiving Pageant" and the Pilgrims are all "helpful" to the "Indians" I will pop a blood vessel in my brain and probably launch a massive reeducation campaign on my poor kid.  

      • i hear that (0 / 0)

        I often wonder what the blissful lives of the unaware must be like. It's got to be unhealthy walking around with all this anger... wouldn't it be better to be one of those parents in the audience thinking "Oh, yes, weren't those Indians so helpful! So nice." And then you could just go home and have pie.

        if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

        by thais on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 07:52:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • So true :) (0 / 0)

          It's a scary question to me, when someone asked: would I rather my daughter be smart and socially aware or pretty but blissfully ignorant.

          I realize that smart and pretty can quite easily go hand in hand, but if you could only choose one characteristic for your child- one dominating one- what would it be? SO HARD because ignorance really can be bliss, but... it's ignorance.

          Seems OT but we watched the movie Idiocracy the other day- truly a dumb flick, but the idea was that the birth rates of successful, hard working individuals was so over powered by the birth rates of the Jerry Springer circle that by the year 2505 the world doesn't know what to do with its garbage, presidents are elected for their ability to act as WWF-style wrestlers and they are starving because they keep feeding their plants a gatorade instead of water because it "has elecrotlytes- what plants crave!" Like I said, don't bother watching the movie, it's really quite bad, but the beginning really struck me- they had a couple who were "waiting" to have children for the "perfect time" with "finances and their careers" next to a guy who had 9 kids with 3 different women and how the gene pool was allocated in the end...

          • genetics is also comforting (0 / 0)

            Look at it this way: our family comes entirely from a stock of bipolar drunks on one side and fundies on the other. I don't think being born from Jerry Springer stock necessarily seals your fate, any more than I think Paris Hilton has good business sense.

            Cultural evolution bears this out-- in the last 100 years we've seen popular movements of environmentalism, women's rights, minority rights, etc. and I'm quite sure the elite bred less avidly than the poor then, too.

            I'm voting pretty and ignorant as long as she's got a rich and kind husband, btw. Sounds nice. Next time I get married I'm shootin' for that, getting plastic surgery, and a lobotomy.

            if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

            by thais on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 12:19:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  • He's written a new diary with a reply (0 / 0)

    from the teacher

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

  • I think the teacher (0 / 0)

    unfortunately wandered into the path of a tornado. I would never send an e-mail like that to one of my child's teachers. Sounds hystrionic and disrespectful. And rather off-topic.

    I have no problem with creationism being taught in the schools-- in religion, poly sci, or history classes, where it belongs, as it is not a science.

    Incidentally, my Catholic high school biology teacher gave us extra credit for bringing in treats on Darwin's birthday. I learned about creationism in history class, during a discussion of the Scope Monkey trial. I thought creationism as a belief was long gone until I went to college and met my first creationist. Weird.

  • read the new diary (0 / 0)

    The teacher isn't even teaching Supak's kid science. He's just teaching English. So I don't really see how the creationism v evolution debate would come up in a way that would be detrimental to the pupil's science education. And if it helps Supak's son become a more critical thinker/writer to discuss the creationism/evolution debate so much the better.

    Does this diary change anybody's mind? It reinforces mine, but I'm also pleased to see that Supak doesn't seem to be channeling rage, but rather trying to reach a connection with this guy. That's how we win!

    • It came up because they're teaching (0 / 0)

      a novel about time travel to a society 11,000 years ago, during an Ice Age.

      Apparently, he's not worried that his son will believe in time travel. ;-)

    • Did you get that? (0 / 0)

      When I read the diary, I thought he seemed even more intolerant and controlling than he does here.  But I guess that had more to do with his comments than the diary itself.  And yes, the fact that he's an English teacher that the kid has only an hour or two of contact with each week makes the whole thing seem more hysterical to me.

      Really, the kid is in eighth grade.  Does he think he can control everything he hears forever?  I sort of feel like you send your child out into the world, you don't agree with every person you meet, teachers may have different styles and values than you do, and yes, most of us hope that our children will come to have similar beliefs as us.

      • Agreed (0 / 0)

        that if the topic doesn't come up, it's not really an issue. There was the initial comment the teacher made, though:

        But if allowed, I will show him the other side of the coin.  I am very familiar with evolution and have read much about it, having been educated in California.

        I think Supak jumped the gun with his initial e-mail, and the whole conversation seems to have gotten out of control- it's past a teacher / parent relationship and is borderline the type of conversation you have with a semi-stranger in a bar when you're trying to argue politics- it doesn't work, you're not really making good points and you're not in the right place for the debate. They are WAAAAAY beyond the whole "thanks for your opinion, please don't teach my kid science" discussion now, and it's only going to be uncomfortable for the poor kid!

  • Wow (0 / 0)

    Holy venting your anger at the nearest moving target, Batman!

    While I can understand the basis for concern, that's not really how I'd choose to handle it.

    I really dislike it when people cite wikipedia as a reference to try to make a point, though.

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