Mother Talkers

Book Club Discussion

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 11:31:21 AM PDT

Eat Pray Love by Elizabeth Gilbert was perfect reading for my recent foreign travels. In the book, which is a memoir, Gilbert embarks on a one-year trip abroad after a divorce and a bout of depression.

While I am not depressed nor divorced -- and I am a mom, which Gilbert intentionally chooses to forgo -- I love to travel and still do, even with a baby in tow.  (Yes, I am paying for this right now with sleep deprivation as Eli is not on the same schedule as me. Ouch!)

Reading this book, made me want to visit especially Italy. When I do go -- a long ways away -- I will take Gilbert’s book with me. Reading her descriptions, made me want to go Naples to taste the pizza she wanted to make love to. I was fascinated by her stories on Roman and Sicilian history.

But most importantly, I could relate to the anguish of the human condition, always searching for anwers to that almighty question, “What is my purpose in life?” Gilbert sheds light on the universality of this experience in her travels to Italy, India and Indonesia, and provides brilliant insight.  

There are so many nuggets in this book I love, but I will limit this discussion to what most struck me and more broad topics like one of our favorites here: religion. Feel free to discuss even if you have not read the book.

In Italy, Gilbert realized that one source of our suffering here in the United States is that we are a “busy” culture. We do not indulge in pleasures like the Italians who sit down for long, leasurely meals, dress up and head for a night out of town. We actually feel guilty for pursuing such pleasures, and others, like learning a foreign language when there is no practical application for it.

I, too, was guilty into falling into this mindset, automatically dismissing the book for the privileged. But as Gilbert pointed out, you don’t need to be rich to take a break for a meal. Even the day laborers in Italy go home for lunch.  (Although in the States, I would say that day laborers can’t go home because they must go to their second jobs. Sorry, it is hard for me to thwart off this practical, American side of me!)

For me, though, a major obstacle in my pursuit of pleasure was my ingrained sense of Puritan guilt. Do I really deserve this pleasure? This is very American, too -- the insecurity about whether we have earned our happiness. Planet Advertising in America orbits completely around the need to convince the uncertain consumer that yes, you have actually warranted a special treat. This Bud’s for you! You Deserve a Break Today! Because You’re Worth It! You’ve Come a Long Way, Baby! And the insecure consumer thinks, Yeah! Thanks! I am gonna go buy a six-pack, damn it! Maybe even two six-packs! And then comes the reactionary binge. Followed by the remorse. Such advertising campaigns would probably not be as effective in the Italian culture, where people already know that they are entitled to enjoyment in this life. The reply in Italy to “You Deserve a Break Today” would probably be, Yeah, no duh. That’s why I’m planning on taking a break at noon, to go over to your house and sleep with your wife.

  • ::

Is it possible for us Americans to slow down? Gilbert does a great job playing out her own inability to let go. Eventually -- it took her a year -- she does learn to relax.

Before we embark to India where Gilbert stayed at an Ashram, I want to dedicate this quote to Katie in New Hampshire. As you all know, she loves our book club discussions, especially when they pertain to west coast, new-agey themes. :-)

Even for me, even after all this time, I still find myself sometimes balking at the word Guru. This is not a problem for my friends in India; they grew up with the Guru principle, they’re relaxed with it. As one young Indian girl told me, “Everyone in India almost has a Guru!” I know what she meant to say (that almost everyone in India has a Guru) but I related more to her unintentional statement, because that’s how I feel sometimes -- like I almost have a Guru. Sometimes I just can’t seem to admit it because, as a good New Englander, skepticism and pragmatism are my intellectual heritage.

You see, Katie. This book provides valuable insight even for a practical New Englander like you!

J/K!

But Gilbert did delve into a topic that would make any New Englander or even  an ingrained, guilt-ridden Catholic like myself cringe: choosing your religion, or as Gilbert described it, “cherry-picking” your religion. At one point in the book she described the dilemma of a friend who wanted to seek solace in the church. Like myself, he was a lapsed Catholic but did not feel comfortable dabbling in eastern religions. (Please note: For me, yoga is more exercise to get tight abs and not a religion for me.)

Of course, he’d be embarrassed to become a Hindu or a Buddhist or something wacky like that. So what could he do? As he told me, “You don’t want to go cherry-picking a religion.”

Which is a sentiment I completely respect except for the fact that I totally disagree. I think you have every right to cherry-pick when it comes to moving your spirit and finding peace in God. I think you are free to search for any metaphor whatsoever which will take you across the worldly divide whenever you need to be transported or comforted. It’s nothing to be embarrassed about. It’s the history of mankind’s search for holiness. If humanity ever evolved in its exploration of the divine, a lot of us would still be worshipping golden Egyptian statues of cats. And this evolution of religious thinking does involve a fair bit of cherry-picking. You take whatever works from wherever you can find it, and you keep moving toward the light.

While I can't picture myself praying at an Ashram or wearing Indian garb at my favorite vegetarian restaurant, I like this concept of "cherry-picking" your religion. Just think of how much less violence we would have in the world if people cherry-picked rather than picked teams.

I know this is an ongoing discussion on our site, but what is your belief system? What do you think about "cherry-picking religions?"

Finally, I loved how the book ended. Of course, the beauty of a book as spiritual as this one is you leave with what you have discovered about yourself and your surroundings.

Because I was abroad, too, I liked the hidden theme that we can enjoy foreign cultures without berating our own. Sometimes when I travel abroad I focus on what I don’t have in the United States -- like time and extended family -- that I overlook what a privilege it is to live in this country.

This description of Bali culture by Gilbert gave me a lot of perspective:

Do the Balinese truly inhabit that peaceful balance, more than anyone else in the world? I mean, they look balanced, what with all the dancing and praying and feasting and beauty and smiling, but I don’t know what’s actually going on under there. The policemen really do wear flowers tucked behind their ears, but there’s corruption all over the place in Bali, just like the rest of Indonesia (as I found out firsthand the other day when I passed a uniformed man a few hundred bucks of under-the-table cash to illegally extend my visa so I could stay in Bali for four months, after all.) The Balinese quite literally live off their image of being the world’s most peaceful and devotional and artistically expressive people, but how much of that is intrinsic and how much of that is economically calculated? And how much can an outsider like me ever learn of the hidden stresses that might loiter behind those “shining faces”? It’s the same here as anywhere else—you look at the picture too closely and all the firm lines start to melt away into an indistinct mass of blurry brushstrokes and blended pixels.

This was my reaction when I visited Cuba. I admired the warmth and hospitality of the people and envied their tight social network. But they had to treat tourists well, or they wouldn’t eat.

Most recently, I had one little moment of depression in Crete when I realized DH’s cousins put in long hours at work -- without guilt -- because their parents watched the children. I was reeling with self-pity, thinking our lives in the States would be so much easier and richer if we had parents nearby to help with the kids. But I received a dose of perspective when this cousin admitted she married and had children young because there weren’t any other opportunities for her in Greece. Also, in meeting familial expectations, she couldn’t leave her parents’ home without being married first. "I want to live my life!" she frequently told me.

This is actually a point that Gilbert makes in her book. She says that sometimes people have children in “the absence of choices.” Very true.

I realized at that moment in Crete with the cousin, that despite my tiredness and lack of time, I did thoroughly enjoy my children. I did get to live my life before I had them. It made me grateful to live in the United States.

What did you think of this book, MotherTalkers? What else piqued your interest?

Tags: Eat Pray Love, Elizabeth Gilbert, book club, religion (all tags)

Permalink | 26 comments

  • I LOVED this book (0 / 0)

    for all of its quirkiness, raw honesty, descriptive writing and amazing adventure...at times I skimmed a bit over the extended explanations of the author's, but I was very moved by her personal journey.

    I laughed out loud so many times reading this book.  The author is hilarious.  Didn't you love her describing her love of the Italian language?  Re-read the scene on page 69-70....too funny.

    On page 184, I was struck by the list that is left for her by Richard her plumber/poet friend from New Zealand regarding "Instructions for Freedom."  I think I actually got teary after reading that part.  I liked the idea of her moving forward past all her anger and bitterness about her ex-husband.  Freeing herself in this way was profound step and deeply meaningful.

    I also marked Chapter 58 where she writes about the specificity of prayer along with ideas about destiny...parts of our lives that we control and the the parts that are uncontrollable.

    I was enthralled by how many sychronistic situations were experienced by Elizabeth and how much I enjoy that in my own life when I notice how  things/energies converge to make certain possibilities exist.

    I felt like I was having an intimate conversation with the author as I read.  I'll read it again down the road  for the sheer fun of it.

    • You are right on, Karen! (0 / 0)

      I felt good after reading this book. And I agree with you: I laughed out loud a lot! See my snippet below: I was rolling.

      • I'm looking for your snippet...did (0 / 0)

        I miss it?

        • It is the diary... (0 / 0)

          right below this entry.

          But I think the "Instructions for Freedom," which also moved me, and your citations on prayer are more representative of the book than the nuggets i picked out. Good job.

          Can you tell I am sleepy?? :-)

          • You're too modest. (0 / 0)

            I loved your post about the book.  It actually makes me want to read it again sooner than later.  I have been glued to reading these days as I have had more time on my hands than usual...I've had some great picks...Lisa See's new novel "Peony in Love" was very good.  I am reading "Water for Elephants" that I absolutely adore.  Every page is packed with great story.  I LOVE it.  

            I'm so happy when I find books I love.  :>)

    • Loved Elizabeth (0 / 0)

      I think her essence and personality are half of what made this book so good.  She was such a charmer, in a good way.

      • Mostly I did too. (0 / 0)

        I especially loved her sense of humor and I thought she had a good amount of self-deprecation along with the notion of perhaps being self-indulgent.  All in all the book balanced out for me and certainly tipped into my loving it in spite of the pitfalls  I noticed.  It was definitely the right time for me with this book.

  • loved it (0 / 0)

    Do you ever read a book that just hits you, that is just what you wanted to read just at that point in your life?  That's what this book is to me.

    I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved this book.  Seriously, it might be my favorite book that I have ever read.  

    When I first started reading it, I was kind of turned off in the beginning, because I thought it was going to  have an anti-kid tone, but it didn't at all.  It was just honest.  

    What I am trying to figure out now is this....

    Is it possible to embark on such a spiritual journey right where you are? Without going to an ashram in India?  With kids crawling all over you all day?  With dishes in the sink and laundry in the dryer waiting to be folded and birthday parties to attend and cleaning (green) waiting for you?

    I'm not sure.  

    Anyway, thank you to Elisa and everyone else who picked this book.  I am so happy I read it, I've been recommending it left and right to everyone I know.

    • Yes, that was my issue (0 / 0)

      with the book, too. Glad I'm not alone with that.

      I felt the book does play into this idea that you have to leave your life-as-it-is  and the relationships and activities you love in order to find spiritual enlightenment. That's possible when you're young and single -- or even not quite so young, but unencumbered by spouse and children. But what about those of us who have made that decision to nurture a home, a relationship, a family ... a community? I can't get on a plane and spend four months dining in Italy, meditating in India and finding love and romance in Indonesia. How lucky for the author to get to do that ... but is that what it takes? A year of sensing, feasting, traveling, finding oneself?

      I have a number of women friends who are really struggling with the "what happened to me?" question ... they are a few years into motherhood and are mourning the loss of the free, adventurous lives they once led. You give up a lot when you become a mom ... of course, you gain a lot too ... but let's face it, the sacrifices are real and many of us do grieve over them.

      So that sort of experience is not in the cards for now. OK. The sensory, fun ... and let's be honest, self-indulgent part of Gilbert's year-long sabbatical is not something I will share for quite some time. But is that truly what leads to enlightenment?

      Think about her struggle to meditate. What is meditation, really, but a practice ... something you do, day in, day out, something you rail against at times, argue with, resist, try to squirm out of, complain to yourself while you do it, but do anyway. As you do it ... repeatedly, conscienciously, despite all your resistance ... your heart grows and opens, and you move into a level of love that you previously had no idea existed. You do it in spite of yourself ... you nurture that flame inside of you ... and it grows.

      Isn't that a lot like mothering?

      Honestly, if someone could compare the size of my heart before I had children to the size it is now, I would have no doubt that they would find that it has tripled, quadrupled, multiplied itself exponentially. All those nights of being roused from sleep repeatedly ... dealing with colic ... toilet-training ... defusing tantrums ... turning tears into laughter ... burping and teaching and loving and learning ... it has grown my heart. I do these things, over and over and over, no longer asking why, just doing them, and lo and behold, some nine years later my heart is bigger, my capacity for compassion is larger, and I feel a connection to every child, every mother who has ever walked the Earth.

      It may not be enlightenment in the classic sense. But it's a bigger love than I ever knew existed, before.

    • NjMom (0 / 0)

      I had a very similiar feeling -- the right time for me to read that book.  I'm  interested reading the comments below that are not as keen on it.  I can see how the author's writing comes off as a bit indulgent, but for me the story itself rose above what she may or may not be as a person - I'll never know what is true about her in any event..

      ..I will read this again sometime both for my own enjoyment and in light of some of the comments below.

      • btw, I do think (0 / 0)

        it's possible to have a spiritual journey right where you are....trueblue describes one in her post.

        I too feel that motherhood has brought me closer to my own spirituality along with other profound life and death experiences, and  53 years of life (as of yesterday) on this beautiful planet.  But I also agree that in the midst of the whirl of family life it is very challenging to carve out a space that attends to the kind of experience the author describes....For me that means that we can't compare to anyone else's spiritual (or any other kind of) journey, we  must find our own.

        • asdf (0 / 0)

          I agree that we can have spirtual journeys right where we are, no travel needed.  But I also agree that sometimes we need space to simply think or pray, and family life makes that very difficult if not impossible.

          This is from Elizabeth's website, this very question.  The bold is my emphasis, which I found particularly amusing  : )

          HOW CAN I POSSIBLY GO ON A JOURNEY LIKE YOURS, GIVEN THAT I HAVE A BUSY LIFE OF   MARRIAGE, KIDS AND WORK RESPONSIBILITIES?

          The last thing I ever want to become is the Poster Child for "Everyone Must Leave Their Husband And Move To India In Order To Find God."  My path is hardly a universal prescription. It was my path – that is all it ever was. I drew up my journey as a personal prescription for solving my life. Transformative journeys come in many forms, though, and often happen without people ever leaving home. Divinity is available everywhere, at all times. People find their way to God during wars, in the middle of traffic jams and in small prison cells. (Though I would submit it's easier for a prisoner to find time to meditate in a jail cell than it is for many of my working-mom friends with young children to create time for contemplation.) The first question you can begin to ask yourself, though, is: "Where can I find a small corner of stillness?" Because that’s where it all begins and ends. God resides in these pockets of silence. So where in your day, where in your home, where in your mind, is there some opportunity for a moment of silence? Or maybe even a few moments, during which you can start asking the questions you need to ask in order to find what you need to learn. Can you find the time to get out of your own way and try to step into your own light? As a dear friend of mine put it: "To change your life, the important thing is not necessarily to travel; the important thing is to SHIFT."  

          • What a great answer (0 / 0)

            I will share that I experienced a body shiver as I read "To change your life, the important thing is not necessarily to travel; the important thing is to SHIFT."  Love that.

            I will check out her website.

            Thanks for sharing the above.

  • not really a fan (0 / 0)

    I read this book a couple of months ago for my real-life book group, and honestly, I didn't like it one iota.  

    Except, I intend to go to Napoli and eat that pizza.  I even looked it up last night while talking to my husband about our future trip to Italy.  I told him, "I want to go to Naples" and he said, "why?" and I said, "there's a pizza I need to eat."

    Despite that part, I found her to be self-indulging, repetitive, and needing a huge dose of reality (in some form other than being handed thousands of dollars so she can journal while living in 3 countries in a year).  

    I really wanted her to stop complaining about the hardships of divorce.  I have been divorced.  Only I was divorced from the father of my two children, and I still don't think I whined (or was as miserable) as she was.  She didn't have that HUGE factor to deal with, and I therefore had a hard time feeling bad for her.  My own baggage?  Probably.  But I found it really melodramatic and inane.  

    I also really had issues with her discussions of religion. My religious history is that of a 14 year old who was thrust into the edicts of a very strict fundamentalist lifestyle without warning when Mom was born-again, and I fought against that tooth and nail until I gave in and went to Jerry Falwell's Liberty University where I met my husband[and ex]-to-be and then had to wrestle my way back OUT of the brainwashing and the fear and the [for lack of a better word] lies.  So again, I am looking at this book through the lens of my own baggage:

    It wasn't cherry-picking as in "I was born Catholic, but I think I want to be Buddhist now" that bothered me, it was the blending and amalgamation tenants and philosophies - a little bit from here, a little bit from there.  I have hope in my heart that there are elements of eastern religions that are true, and I found her reiteration of it to be laced with the negativity and the worst assumptions from Christianity as I knew it.  (I just spent 15 minutes searching the text for an example, and I couldn't put my fingers on one - since I am taking the Bar Exam on Weds, I can't keep looking right now.  If someone wants to discuss it further, let me know via e-mail, and I'll be more than happy to re-read the India part of the book to find what I'm talking about --- on Friday).  Here's an attempt at being more positive:

    What I liked:  Her discussion of the Gurugita (the chant in India that she despised), and the connection she made with her nephew - how she gave that prayer to him, and how at the same time, he was helping her - neither with any knowledge of each other's actions or effects.  I liked that a lot.  That is the sort of truth and real-ness that I find hope in, despite my [atheism?].  

    I also loved the part where she saw the "souls" of her and david meeting and saying goodbye - on that rooftop.  That again, that's the sort of thing that gives me hope.  My Jewish friends at book group HATED that part, they thought it was too "out there." I thought it was beautiful.

    Sorry to be the downer about the book - just - I really didn't like it.

    ~ zuska http://zuska.wordpress.com

    by Zuska on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:13:38 PM PDT

    • good luck on the bar!! (0 / 0)

      I enjoyed the book more than you did.  That said, there was something about the tone -- maybe self-indulgence? -- that irritated me.  I notice this a lot in writing by Anne Lamott and others, including the Salon writer who wrote about Amma in Amy's post last week, that aggrandizes the writer ("am I getting a hug from the mother of the universe?").  It reminds me of a woman I used to end up covering stuff alongside when I was a freelancer.  I enjoyed her company, but her stories were always so much about her that it was sometimes hard to find the subject.  So maybe it's just me, having had that experience and being sensitive to it.  And of course, since this is a memoir, it's to be expected.

      I was less irritated when the writer was in India, and it seemed like she was really working hard and learning about herself, than when she was in Italy.  Was anyone else bothered by her tizzy about giving money to the healer in Thailand?  I felt like, A gift is a gift.  You can't really control what people do with gifts.

      There were things I liked about it, too.  Some of the descriptions really made me feel like I was there.  She has a knack for capturing dialog, and I really enjoyed some of the people she found along the way.  (Although her locutions like "My New Zealand poet/pumber" or whatever seemed sort of objectifying and disrespectful to me). And the book made me reflect on my own meditation practice, and reminded me to renew my commitment to it.  I even started using her "ham-sa" mantra, and I like it!  I can't imagine ever doing it for hours a day, but this book was a good nudge for me.

    • Yeah, I enjoyed the book, but (0 / 0)

      I didn't really like her. She is an exceptional writer, no doubt, and her prose elevates what would sound from anyone else like whiny self-pity into an amusing travelogue. I enjoyed the book for what it was -- I laughed out loud at times, and was in awe of her ability to communicate certain details and emotions with just the right touch. But as I reflect on the book -- and it's been about nine months now, since I finished it -- I see that her woes, in the grand scheme of things, are small.

      For perspective, I just finished Melissa Fay Green's "There Is No Me Without You." Man. Now there's an antidote to self-absorption ... take on the AIDS crisis in Africa, open your home and heart to dozens upon dozens of orphans, and raise the profile of a scourge that has left millions of children homeless. Maybe Elizabeth Gilbert should follow up "Eat, Pray, Love" with a trip to Ethiopia. Wouldn't that be an interesting way to apply the lessons she learned during her year abroad.

      • I'm glad I'm not the only one (0 / 0)

        who found her a bit hard to take at times.  It made me feel so stingy to be quibbling with her style while I was reading it.

        • No ... not stingy (0 / 0)

          You were responding instinctively to something that rubbed you the wrong way. The whole book is about self indulgence -- making a case for it, in fact.

          Most people would feel far too guilty to attempt to do what she did: abandon a less-than-thrilling marriage, spend four months basking in the delights of Italy, devote four months to her spiritual growth in India, and then spend another four months in Indonesia simply enjoying life to the fullest. She did it, and she did it to the nth degree. And she argues that she was serving the world by doing this, in that every happy person contributes to the overall happiness of the planet. She describes her life as desperately miserable before her trip ... but was it? Or was she just deeply unsatisfied with what would seem to many others to be "enough"?  

          I think that's what stopped me; not so much the joy she found on her trip, but her deep dissatisfaction with her life beforehand; I was impatient with her misery. As much as I enjoyed her narrative -- and I certainly could relate at times to her wallowing! -- I found it a bit over-dramatized, and, yes, self-indulgent. She's such a charming writer and I really wanted to on this journey with her, but I too had this niggling feeling that she was sort of a drama queen.

  • Liked it (0 / 0)

    Like others, I especially loved her time in Italy.  Guess I like food better than spirituality, although I enjoyed that, too.  I don't have any problem with blending the different parts of different religions that appeal to you and dumping what you don't like.  In fact, I prefer it to sticking to one, since there are great big HUGE morally currupt parts to every religion I can think of.  So ditch those parts.

    I recognized the self-indulgence discussed above but was not bothered by it.  She chose not to have children, or at least not yet (and probably not ever), so she gets to be.  It was a good choice for her that grants her more freedom than a mommy has, but she's not defensive about it, doesn't hate breeders or kids.  To me, she is the ideal child-free person.  I would love to take a journey like hers, but I wouldn't trade my kids for it.  Like Yalom says, for every yes there's a no.  I don't come close to making huge amounts of friendships in such a short time like she does, so my journey would be much lonelier than hers.  I'm more like her sister.

    I've not been to Italy or India, but I have been to Bali.  Even in a short time, I found the way the Balinese people are romanticized to be a bit ...off?  Yes, they are wonderful and friendly.  They have to be.  It's really neither an asset nor a weakness, it just is.  I remember during my first few days there, walking on the beach and having a really nice talk with a Balinese girl.  I thought we were just walking, but before I knew it, we were at her shop (pretty much everyone in Bali has a shop).  Tourists are their bread and butter, no differently than we all earn our livings.  Fine, understandable, absolutely justfiable.  But not particularly awe-inspiring, either.  I thought Elizabeth's friend explained it to her so well when he was trying to explain how the woman she raised the money for could genuinly see her as a friend and also want to squeeze more and more from her financially at the same time.

  • Haven't commented yet (0 / 0)

    because I am only about 1/2 way through India in the book.

    I really enjoyed the Italy part and echo the sentiments of everyone who wants to go there and eat -- me too!

    I haven't enjoyed the India chapters as much, though. I'm not sure why. I didn't get that feeling of her being so indulgent that some of you felt. I just don't identify with this part as much.

    On to Bali when I finish India.

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