Mother Talkers

Teen Porn Case

by Amy

Wed May 09, 2007 at 10:42:15 PM PDT

Atrios linked to a couple of articles that exemplified a new version of what I'll call "digital teen trouble." Teens are getting convicted for violating child pornography laws for taking pictures of their own selves and posting them online.

The first is a story about a Pittsburg girl, 15, who took lots of sexxxy pix of herself and sent them to people she met in chatrooms.

She has been charged with sexual abuse of children, possession of child pornography and dissemination of child pornography.

The second story involves Amber, 16, and her boyfriend Jeremy, 17, who got naked and busy like many other teens before them. In a modern twist, they took digital pictures of themselves, and Amber later emailed the photos to Jeremy.

One can assume that someone in a position of authority (dad?) saw the pictures and threw a fit. And the teenagers ended up in court, prosecuted for violating Florida's kiddie porn laws.

These are interesting applications of the laws meant to protect children from predators and exploiters. Atrios was responding to an opinion piece that Garance Franke-Ruta wrote for the Wall Street Journal, wherein she argues that the age of consent for nudie shots should be bumped to 21. An excerpt:

In certain obvious respects, 18 years is old enough to ward off the threat of "child porn." But the "Girls Gone Wild" problem concerns adult porn: At what age is a girl ready to make that decision, one that she will live with--technologically speaking, at least--for the rest of her life? A woman of 18 may be physically indistinguishable from one who is 21, but they are developmentally worlds apart.

Think only of the difference between a college freshman and a recent college graduate, or between a high-school senior and a young woman with a job and apartment of her own. Or think of the difference between a 19-year-old girl--intoxicated by both a Scorpion Bowl (illegally served) and her own newly developed form--and a woman who has been through her first heartbreak and has had to think long and hard about what her value is, both in her personal life and at the office. The second woman is more likely to nurse a chardonnay with friends than "go wild" in the sense that Mr. Francis' cameras are so eager to record. Surely the porn industry can survive without the participation of teenagers.

  • ::

I have mixed feeling about her legal prescription. I think it would be somewhat unenforceable. I totally agree with her assessment of the developmental age difference between 18 and 21, but I also know the value and sometimes inescapability of "learning the hard way." Some aging hippie photog got me to shed my clothes when I was 19. He buttered me up, convinced me I was photogenic, a work of art, really... I had not developed the keen bullshit detector I have now, and was intoxicated with my springtime sexuality and absolute freedom. Long story short, naked shots of me (thankfully blurry and abstract) ended up on large posterboards hanging in a popular urban coffee shop that I walked into one day, years later. I was never asked permission, never warned, and never given compensation. This happened before the digital revolution had gained significant traction, so the audience was limited.

Girls have been going wild forever. In the digital age, there are plenty more opportunities for people to document or exploit this naturally occurring phenomenon. Do you think that there should be laws to protect teenagers from exploiting their own selves? Is it exploitation if they are doing it themselves, for their own pleasure and pride?

Tags: porn, teenagers, sex, email, laws, internet (all tags)

Permalink | 28 comments

  • asdf (0 / 0)

    How did you feel when you saw the shots up in the coffee shop?  Were you angry?

    I'm all for raising the age of consent for nude shots.  I agree that it would be kind of unenforceable, but there is a huge difference between 18 and 21.

    by NJmom on Thu May 10, 2007 at 05:23:33 AM PDT

    • Definitely (0 / 0)

      But I was also angry at myself for being such a sucker. I imagine that every teen girl wants someone to think they are beautiful, and the desire for that makes them vulnerable. I was lucky that my mistake was pretty mild--I wasn't doing anything particularly sexual (other than being nekkid) and the shots were more artsy. In the instances of the girls above who were prosecuted, the pictures were of a whole different caliber--definitely falling into the porn category.

      by Amy on Thu May 10, 2007 at 07:45:06 AM PDT

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    • Dunno (0 / 0)

      seems a  little dishonest, kind of like the 18 is old enough to go to war but not old enough to drink" thing.  
      So you can be old enough that you need to have a job, support yourself and pay your own way through the world, but can't take pictures of the body you finally own?

      I mean, by 19 I was married, had been out of the house for 3 years, was working full time and going to college.  DH and I took a couple of pictures we keep for ourselves...I considered myself a grownup at that age, and looking back, still do.

      Besides, I REALLY don't get the idea of unenforceable laws.

      What do you mean, uh-oh? Toddler & baby pictures

      by round peg inna square hole on Thu May 10, 2007 at 07:48:48 AM PDT

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      • laws (0 / 0)

        Drinking laws don't make sense either (how can you go to war, but not be old enough to have a beer?), but I'm for them too.

        For me, on this one, anything that deters businesses from going after young women, at least until they are a little bit older is a good thing.  

        I'm not saying that posing nude is a bad thing necessarily, I just think young women would be in a better position to really decide that when they are 21 instead of 18.

        by NJmom on Thu May 10, 2007 at 08:41:26 AM PDT

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        • My only problem with this is (0 / 0)

          what if we later, in all of our wisdom, decide that gee, 24 year olds don't know so much, either, and we need to protect them from those who exploit them?  We could argue this, because as I said below, I certainly know a helluva lot more now than I did when I was 25...aren't we really just perpetuating paternalistic views towards women this way?

          by tjb22 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 08:49:07 AM PDT

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          • i hear ya tjb22 (0 / 0)

            and as always appreciate your pov. i hear you loud and clear on the problem of prolonging adolescense.  but i think that problem exists more due to parents not setting appropriate boundaries.

            i don't view this as paternalistic, rather inhibiting exploitation. the science behind brain development seems sound to me. we already have precedent with drinking age of 21.  it seems to me we are just calibrating.

            by parentalunit1 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 09:13:35 AM PDT

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          • raising (0 / 0)

            I would be all for raising the minimum age to pose nude to 24 also.  Just kidding.

            But in all seriousness, I think that laws like this really only hurt the porn industry etc.  And I definitely don't care about making their lives a little harder or limiting their pool of applicants a bit.

            I'm not sure it's perpetuating paternalistic views towards women, since I assume young men would be covered under it also.

            It sounds like laws that would sort of parallel drinking laws, yes, you are technically adult, but a few extra years before you can do this is a good thing.

            by NJmom on Thu May 10, 2007 at 12:06:59 PM PDT

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    • I'm not for enacting laws (0 / 0)

      that enforce this already ridiculous trend of prolonging the idea of adolescence.  I purposely try to not refer to my older offspring as "kids" any longer for this notion.  I'm telling them that at 18 they are considered responsible for themselves, I'm allowing them freedom and I think that throwing up more barriers to this serves little purpose.  We start "protecting" them until they're 21 and before you know it, we'll be looking at 22 and 23 years olds and saying "yeah, but they really don't know very much at that age"...and frankly, they don't...they don't "know" things the way that I know them in my 40's, but in a way I think its insulting, especially to young women for all of us to insist on doing things "for their own good".

      by tjb22 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 08:13:00 AM PDT

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    • can't agree with you, NJMom (0 / 0)

      why pass a law that's unenforceable, or extremely difficult in terms of time and money spent to enforce it? It degrades the perception of law and justice by making it seem trivial and arbetrary (and don't we have enough trouble with that already.

      What I think is more necessary is educating our children about the flip side to technology. Yes, it is easy and convenient and fascinating to take all sorts of pictures of yourself and send them everywhere around the world, but what are the consequences of that action. It's more subtle, and not as easy to regulate, but healthier, I think.

      by Rachel on Thu May 10, 2007 at 03:44:42 PM PDT

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      • How (0 / 0)

        Perhaps it is unenforceable to a point, but it's no harder to enforce than the current law (which is 18).

        by NJmom on Thu May 10, 2007 at 04:04:05 PM PDT

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        • yes, i think we (0 / 0)


          get caught up in what WE would do with our kids.  that's a different discussion than what a good society does to protect it's own, particularly their young.  not everyone is as  well educated or as informed.  pornographers prey on young women and even young men.  so the law exists, why not, as nj mom suggests, further the protection?  the proposed law is suggesting an age that already is established as a limit for other activities.

          by parentalunit1 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 04:15:54 PM PDT

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  • good idea imo (0 / 0)

    raising the age to 21? i'd support it. here's why:

    1.  teen brains are still developing that executive judgement portion until @ age 21.  so exactly what happened to amy is a perfect example.  while anectedotal, amy's story brought back a memory of mine.  i was probably 23 years old.  i was waiting outside a store early morning, alone in santa monica.  a man approached me and asked if i'd be interested in being photographed...blah blah blah. my bullshit meter went on high alert. i don't think it would have at age 18.  
    1. while i understand the argument against given military service at age 18, i still don't agree. firstly conisder the old adage of 2 wrongs don't make a right.  AND the reason the military age is 18 is because generals know quite well that older men are hard to convince to run headlong into combat.  the reason 18 year olds will do it?  because of the brain development of executive judgement. sad, but true.
    1. i understand also the impact of consequences. however exploitation of women, and teens makes me a little crazy.  there are better ways to learn the lesson of consequences imo.
    1.  finally, the question of unenforceable.  not sure it is so impossible to enforce.  and having a law that may deter seems an ok thing to me.

    by parentalunit1 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 08:15:37 AM PDT

  • While I posted above that I (0 / 0)

    don't believe laws should be enacted to protect 18-21 year olds, I do believe that we have to be aware of what younger kids might be up to.

    Several years ago, in a high school that my oldest attended for one year, one poor girl had the bad judgment to let her boyfriend take pictures.  Well, he passed the photos a long, and before you know it, they were spread all through the school.  This girl was only 15, as was the boy.

    What to do?  I can't see why this behavior can't be handled by charging teens with delinquincies.  Why do we need a different, specific law?  

    by tjb22 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 08:16:39 AM PDT

    • Somewhat similar... (0 / 0)

      Our local paper has a teen advice column and one letter a while ago was from a girl who was angry at her sister with whom she shared a room.  The writer took a picture of her sister undressed with her cell phone and sent it to a guy at school - he then passed it around and it ended up all over the school.

      The writer was horrified at what she had done and was trying to figure out how to make amends to her sister.

      It's kind of like the phenomenon of sending an angry or embarrassing email and then instantly regretting it.  Sometimes technology can allow us to make snap judgments that might not have happened had she, say, taken a picture with her 35 mm camera, gotten it developed, etc. and thus had time to cool down in between.

      Katherine

      by pat of butter in a sea of grits on Thu May 10, 2007 at 09:23:13 AM PDT

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  • I'm torn on this issue (0 / 0)

    We have to establish legal adulthood at some point, and 18 is a reasonable age. Regarding the comments about the drinking laws, I actually would support lowering the drinking age to 18 because I think it would lower the instances of teen binge drinking, especially in college. I can't remember who said it or when, but one of the frequent MT commenters once pointed out that the most drunk driving incidents are commited by 21 year olds.

    An 18 year old girl may not have the same judgement as a 21 year old, but as a legal adult she needs to learn about personal responsibility. As a parent of a girl, it is my responsibility to raise her to be as informed as possible about people who may take advantage of her lack of life experience. Any choices she makes after that are hers, and so are the consequences.

    Yet, I also think that whatever can be done to reduce/eradicate child exploitation and the expoloitation of teens for others' enjoyment SHOULD be done. Even if it's legislation that can't be enforced too often. It's one of the worst things that a person can do, IMO, to harm a child in that way or to enable it by being a consumer. Why not do everything possible to try to stop it?

    by jenna on Thu May 10, 2007 at 09:42:58 AM PDT

    • not with you on ... (0 / 0)


      lowering drinking age.  

      many factors contribute to binge drinking both in high school and college.  there just isn't any data that supports a notion that lowering the legal age would inhibit binge drinking.  here again there is quite a bit of research on brain development as it pertains to both drugs and alcohol.  the executive judgement is still not fully developed which explains risk taking.  and there is now evidence that teens process alcohol in their brain quite differently.  seems that unlike adults( 22 and older) teens can't sense they are getting drunk until they are near blotto, in other words passed out. we are also learning quite a lot about addiction.  it seems that the earlier kids start using (alcohol or drugs) the rates of addiction goes up exponentially.  

      so i don't support lowering the drinking age based on anecedotal information. we are just now learning so much more and it all points to a mutli-faceted approach including education, harm reduction, stress relief and nailing the alcohol industry's marketing practices.  think about how we did it with tobacco...that's what needs to happen around alcohol.

      by parentalunit1 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 12:31:11 PM PDT

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  • Curious (0 / 0)

    What did you do when you saw the shots in the coffee shop?  Did you try to get them removed?

    Katherine

    by pat of butter in a sea of grits on Thu May 10, 2007 at 10:04:51 AM PDT

    • Nah (0 / 0)

      They weren't very explicit, and most people would not have recognized the person in the photos as me.

      What I did was confront the photographer when I ran into him next. I told him that he should have asked my permission or at the very least given me a head's up that images of my body would be displayed in a very public place. I told him I felt used and disrespected. I don't remember his reaction too well, but I remember a sense of having "reclaimed some of my power." I let him know in a vague way that if he did something like that again, I'd cause trouble.

      What was most unsettling about the experience was the feeling that by possessing these fotos, this man had power over me.

      by Amy on Thu May 10, 2007 at 05:31:30 PM PDT

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  • That is demented (0 / 0)

    The idea of prosecuting a girl for taking nude pictures of herself for child pornography has got to be one of the craziest things I've ever heard.

    As for raising the age to 21, everyone's got to be stupid sometime. Better to get that stupidity out of the way at 18 when we can easily write it off as youthful indiscretion. Excuses are harder to come by when your'e 21... or 25... or 30.

    by shenanigans on Thu May 10, 2007 at 10:14:40 AM PDT

  • Note to self: (0 / 0)

    remind daughter and son that any racy photos they or their friends take can end up on the internet and all over the world in a matter of minutes.

    They're only 10, so I think I can wait awhile to tell them, but I need to remember this gem.

    by Lisa in Austin on Thu May 10, 2007 at 01:35:20 PM PDT

    • middle school! (0 / 0)

      not that far away unfortunately...seeing middle school kids with digital cameras posting dumb stuff on my space.

      by parentalunit1 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 01:40:22 PM PDT

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      • Is it me, or (0 / 0)

        is myspace the biggest potential headache for these kids or what? A bit late to this party, but I read in the NYT that employers are starting to check myspace pages to see what a person is like in their more unguarded moments. And oftentimes, it ain't pretty.

        One of my best friends is a single guy, 36, in NYC. I always tell him that if a woman he is dating has a myspace page, she is simply too young :).

        And I am with you on the drinking age, it needs to stay at 21 for all of the reasons you have mentioned. I have never thought of the porn angle before, but can see moving the age of consent for that to 21 also.

        by RachelD on Thu May 10, 2007 at 09:16:40 PM PDT

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        • not just employers (0 / 0)

          but college admission offices as well. it's a new world and more complicated with internet.  kids know more than their parents about it.  kids make mistakes that can have consequences that many parents are not yet savvy enough to parent around. we are all playing catch up.

          by parentalunit1 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 09:30:59 PM PDT

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        • I agree (0 / 0)

          I can say I am so happy none of this stuff was around when I was in high school and college.  

          Just because I would have been stupid enough to put something stupid up and get burned for it.  

          : )

          by NJmom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:23:21 AM PDT

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