Mother Talkers

Finding Flow Book Discussion

by RachelD

Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 10:02:20 PM PDT

In the early 90s, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi coined the term "flow" to describe peak experiences where time feels suspended, with a sense of freedom and complete absorption. Flow experiences are high skill – but not so high as to be continually frustrating – and high concentration activities to meet a specific goal. Flow experiences include feedback – from other people or from immediate results – that supports a feeling of satisfaction that comes from using favorite skills.

Finding Flow, his second popular book on the subject, examines the connections between flow and daily, mundane activities – mostly work and leisure.  This work focused more on practical ideas, skills, and frames of mind that support flow experiences. While this book is not your typical self-help book, I found that on the whole, it offered thought provoking ideas about the choices we make every day about our jobs, our leisure time, and our relationships – and how these choices result in immediate impact on our sense of well-being or on feelings of "psychic entropy."

I read the book with an eye toward how the concept of flow applies specifically to motherhood and women’s concerns in general. I was happy to find quite a lot that directly relates and thought these ideas were fertile ground:

  •  Flow requires concrete goals and immediate feedback on performance. Both of these things seem tough to come by in raising children. On the other hand, Csikszentmihalyi specifically says that parenting can be experienced as draining and not fulfilling at all, or as a flow experience when approached as a performance or an art, where skill is constantly used and improved upon. How do these things square?
  •  Most of us use our leisure time very poorly – in ways that produce psychic entropy rather than flow. Passive leisure and consumption clearly do not product flow, yet most of us rely on these things to some extent to "relax." He believes that the extra effort it takes to get into a flow experience is the barrier. How can we conjure that extra effort, given the big pay off in our well-being?
  •  Most people experience flow more often with friends than family. Is this your experince? When was the last time you saw your best friend? Does it feel hard to carve out time exclusively for friends?
  •  Csikszentmihalyi says that WOHMs have lower self-esteem than SAHMs due to higher expectations of getting more stuff done. He said this in the context of arguing that self-esteem is not directly correlated with flow, ie flow can be experienced without high self-esteem. What do we make of all of that? (Admittedly, I am mixing apples and oranges here).
  •  Housework consistently was found to product psychic entropy. Given that women do a fair amount of housework – and what he calls "maintenance" activities in general – how do we put these activities in their place and get on with other things?
  •  The worst place to be psychologically is with nothing better to do. When was the last time you experienced this feeling?

I must confess that he lost me a bit in the last section when he tries to relate his (admittedly vast) knowledge of human well-being to a larger spiritual framework. I was especially puzzled when he related his view of "psychic entropy" to the idea of "evil." But his basic premise – that making choices to reduce psychic entropy in other people and in communities as a whole – is fascinating, and takes the concept of flow out of the exclusive realm of the individual.

Share your thoughts. Have you experienced flow recently? Has this book inspired any action toward change in daily routine – or larger life goals?

Tags: Book club, book discussion, Finding Flow, flow (all tags)

Permalink | 24 comments

  • asdf (0 / 0)

    (I'm going to call the author M.C. if that's ok.)
    Parenting and Flow

    So according to M.C., Flow can be experienced mostly in Productive experiences, working, studying, creating, even driving, although it's not always guaranteed while at work depending on the job. Then there are all the Maintenance activities, (eating, cooking, cleaning) that are necessary to Produce.  And M.C. acknowledges that women are the world are basically screwed in this respect, since we do most of them.

    Then with direct reference to parenting (p. 112), he acknowledges that you can achieve Flow while parenting, if one 'approaches it with the same attention as a sport or artistic performance.'  He cites a mother reading with her child, or making cookies as examples.

    I take issue on this one.  I think if we are going to be happy as mothers, whether SAHM or WOHM, we have to surrender to a certain amount of Maintenance activities and realize that they are important to our children too.  Parenting is not all reading books and making cookies.  Everytime we tidy the house, do a load of laundry, cook a dinner, change a diaper, we are also parenting.  We have to find a way to find meaning in these mundane tasks or we will surely be miserable.

    WOHM/SAHM/Self-Esteem

    The WOHM vs. SAHM self-esteem quote that you mentioned really struck me (p. 24):

    Mothers who work full-time have lower self-esteem than mothers who do not work at all, because although they accomplish more, their expectations still outpace their achievements.

    I don't work outside the home, so I don't know about this one.  But I could see how it would be true, at least in the early years, when it could feel like nothing was being done 100%.  If you are a perfectionist, this could be super stressful.

    Men & Women and how they experience work

    M.C. also says that men and women experience work differently:

    Men's identity and self-respect have been based on their ability to obtain energy...for their own and families' use. ....Leaving aside those still relatively few career women whose primary identification is with thier jobs,  most women who work...think of their outside job as something they want to do, rather than something they have to do.  Work is more voluntary for many women, it is more like play, something they could take or leave....Even if things go wrong...it will not hurt their self-esteem.  Their self-image depends more heavily on what happens to their families.

    Free time

    The part about weekends really struck me.  

    When spending time at home with the family or alone, people often lack a clear purpose, do not know how well they are doing....and as are result feel bored or anxious. (p. 59)....Holidays and vacations are periods of increased mental disturbance....On weekends, peopple report more symptoms of illness.

    I am definitely more antsy on the weekends strangely enough.  Even though, I enjoy the weekends more, when I am out of my daily groove, which is basically me taking care of two kids all day by myself, I do feel a little uneasy.  I was glad to read this to validate those feelings.  

    TV

    This goes to your question about leisure time.  M.C. mentions how bad TV is for producing feelings of Flow.  I agree, but I can't get away from the fact at how effective it is for chilling out.  It takes energy to come up with leisure activites that produce Flow.  Which is why so many of us use so much of our leisure time watching TV.

    What we really value:

    This quote really struck me too:

    For despite the fact that almost everyone claims the family is the most concern in their lifes, very few, especially very few men, behave as if this were the case.  True, most married men are convinced that there lives are dedicated to the family, and from a material standpoint this might be true.  But it takes more than food in the fridge and two cars in the garage to keep a family going.  A group  is kept together by two types of energy: material...and psychic.

    I was thinking about this in relation to that quote in the Start-Over Dads article, where the Harvard doctor said he basically neglected his children for his career.  I think there are so many men like this, working in all kinds of fields.  

    Kind of off topic, but I wonder if a mom staying at home encourages this type of neglect.  If the father knows that the mom is there, is he more likely to invest more and more in his job, knowing that things are covered, both physically at home and emotionally.  

    I see so many families around  me where the SAHMs are basically single-parent families, where the moms are pulling all the weight, other than the money.  And the fathers are almost just visitors on the weekends.  Is this healthy?  For all our talk about working moms, vs. SAHMs, maybe we should be talking more about absent dads too.

    by NJmom on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:06:45 AM PDT

    • MC (0 / 0)

      Yes, let's call him MC.

      I thought the term "maintenance" was particularly gendered - ie he doesn't personally value the work, and probably doesn't do it either, so it got cast as "maintenance." It probably could have been called aspects of parenting or homemaking as you say. But he does say that his research shows really low well being during maintenance activities. Is housework inherently an activity that brings on entropy, or is it the labels we use for it and the gendered battles we ascribe to it that brings us down? Some people really like cleaning, get into a zen "chop wood, carry water" mode doing it. I know for myself, cleaning is about that "nothing better to do" feeling he talks about. I think it's because I miss my professional job. Can I teach myself to get into cleaning and maintaining our home, or at least not actively dislike it?

      The whole SAHM/WOHM self esteem thing really puzzled me. This flies in the face of beliefs some psychologists and therapists have that the more social roles a person has, the better the well-being, and I have always assumed, better self-concept. So I didn't get that. Maybe jobs have evolved to too too much in terms of time.

      I happen to love particular TV shows - Sex and the City and Six Feet Under. I loved the characters and the overall stories. I got major enjoyment from them. Sometimes I tried to picture MC's daily life, and got kind of tired and overwhelmed!!

      Will write more later ..... gotta give ds breakfast!

      Excellent post, NJMom!

      RachelD

      by RachelD on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:59:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Activities (0 / 0)

        I think as far as Maintenance activites, I know for myself, if I can assign value to them in term of the larger picture, they are not as onerous.  

        The SAHM/WOHM thing really puzzled me.  I guess it was self-reporting from his own study and maybe he just drew conclusions that WOHMs have lower self-esteem based on some measure.

        I could use some more Flow actitities in my life though, I just don't know where to start.

        by NJmom on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:18:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Interesting Framing (0 / 0)

    He sort of gives a "frame" to my dissatisfaction with parenting. I spend twice the time I used to doing "maintenence" work, which I experience as draining. It gobbles up the time I used to spend doing "flow" activities, which made me feel good about myself. The flow activities (putting in a garden, sewing clothes, long bike rides, cooking with friends, painting rooms, writing stories) depended on big stretches of uninterrupted leisure time.

    I totally take issue with this characterization: "...Leaving aside those still relatively few career women whose primary identification is with thier jobs,  most women who work...think of their outside job as something they want to do, rather than something they have to do.  Work is more voluntary for many women, it is more like play, something they could take or leave....Even if things go wrong...it will not hurt their self-esteem." Is this guy stuck in the 1950s?

    I didn't read the book, but I appreciate that you summarized the main ideas. Tell me--how did he come to this characterization of working women? Was it derived from some sort of research? It definitely does not jive with my experience or many of my peers, and it sort of feeds into the assumptions that underpin workplace sexism (let's pay the woman less because she doesn't need to work. It's just a hobby, or play, something they could take or leave...)

    by Amy on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:13:07 PM PDT

    • Agree (0 / 0)

      I totally agree with your take on that quote about women and our jobs. I did not know what to make of it. It's wildly off the mark in my personal experience and for most women I know.

      I also couldn't figure out the motivation for it - ie I didn't think that it was central to his main points and construct of flow. He does not cite specific research on this passage .... although I will correct that tomorrow when I have a chance to look specifically for that. I do remember thinking, how is he supporting that, and realizing he doesn't specifically cite anything for that, or the research on SAHM/WOHM. It's too bad, because it's off the main point of the book, imo, which in general I found chock full of insights into well being and everyday activities.

      RachelD

      by RachelD on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:21:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Sense (0 / 0)

      Yeah, that quote didn't make sense on a lot of levels.  

      First of all, there are a lot of women who really need the paycheck to pay the bills, so they would be darn upset if their job vanished.  Work is not play for them, it's work.

      And, on the flip side, there are a lot of men who would quit their jobs too if they didn't need the money.  And of course, lots of men AND women who love their jobs and work because they like their jobs or some combo of factors.

      I got the idea that he did his own research where people marked 'happiness' diaries throughout the day.  But I don't get where he got that idea anyway.  His own head I assume.

      by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:20:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • His research method (0 / 0)

        He pioneered the method of giving people beepers that go off randomly, when they then write what they are doing, with whom, and some ranking of well being. I think it's considered a major improvement on the more traditional way of asking people how they felt about something or while doing something much later, in an interview setting, or a questionnaire. I think he said he's used the method for about 30 years and many other researchers as well.

        I assume there are critiques of the method, too. Maybe it's a little knee-jerk, maybe our emotions ebb and flow all day and it's hard to pinpoint why - maybe it's not the activity in the moment? The thing with housework, my mind wanders and I sometimes ruminate over some problem. So is it housework or not being mindful of what I'm doing, of having "monkey mind" as it's called in meditation? More on this below.

        RachelD

        by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 07:15:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • Correction to my post above (0 / 0)

      He does have endnotes .... sorry about that. Last night I got home pretty late after another bookclub in my offline life and was rushing. He does have endnotes for all of these statements. I guess he didn't want to get too academic in the text.

      The study on women, work, and self-esteem is from 1988. Seems a little skimpy - one study and quite old by now.

      RachelD

      by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 07:23:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • 20 years (0 / 0)

        Thanks for looking that up.  In terms of women and work, a lot has happened (and changed) in twenty years.

        by Amy on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:56:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • Layer of truth (0 / 0)

        The more I think about it, the more I think there might be a layer of truth to what MC said.

        Things do affect men and women differently in the self-esteem department.

        Like not having enough cash, let's say.  The women I know are quite practical about it.  They just do what needs to be done (get a new job, different job).  Men on the other hand, can take it personally if there isn't enough to get X or Y.

        And then I think women's self-esteem is more affected by stuff in the home, both positive and negative.  If the house is a mess, if our kids eat junk food, if our kids are having trouble in school, etc. Men are more likely to be more practical about those things and try to come up with solutions.

        Of course, wild generalizations here, but maybe what he was saying wasn't all wrong, although said quite awkwardly?

        by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:56:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Was stated too black and white (0 / 0)

          I think he was a bit awkward with it. His statement was very black and white about gender, no nuance, or individual differences.

          I wonder if some women have our identities in our jobs and homes, and we do a "second shift" in the identity department as well. I hadn't thought of it that way, as just one possibility, until I read your post. No wonder we (I!) get overwhelmed!

          I do think it would feel like a calamity for me if I felt like a failure as a mother (obviously), but also as a therapist. I"ll have to give this one more thought.

          RachelD

          by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:20:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Awkward (0 / 0)

            I actually think that every single quote that he wrote that had anything to do with gender was totally awkward now that you mention it.

            Along with our multiple identities, I'm sure we can have multiple crises in that department too.

            by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:00:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  • So... (0 / 0)

    So, RachelD, what did you get from the book in terms increasing your own moments of Flow?

    Do you think your job allows you opportunities to 'Flow'?

    My old job definitely didn't.

    I'm trying to think of some simple things I can do to increase my moments of Flow, because I really believe that they are important to my happiness.  I know what Flow feels like.  But, I'll be honest, I rarely feel it these days.  I feel happy in other ways, but not in Flow.

    My life right now is mostly made up of Maintenance. although I enjoy my kids immensely. Other than taking a Zen approach to tidying and the like, I'm stuck.

    by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 06:27:11 AM PDT

    • Been experimenting (0 / 0)

      Well, I've been pondering the maintenance activity dilemma. As I mentioned above, my mind wanders while I clean, thinking what else I have to do, and fretting about things that I can't solve immediately while unloading the dishwasher. So for me I think a first step is some better use of mindfulness skills. And reframing into "taking care of our home", "creating a nicer space", etc. which you've mentioned a few times. I don't know if this will work in the long run, but it's worth a shot. I can't imagine that mindfulness training won't work really. But it's a steep learning curve.

      I also experimented with different tasks, just to shake it up and not do so much maintenance in big chunks. So yesterday I decided to prune our one big rose bush. This was pretty close to flow - I had to concentrate, it takes knowledge, immediate feedback (bush looks good or not), and I got about a dozen roses out of it. Not bad.

      My job did have a lot of flow time. A therapy session takes intense concentration, knowledge and skill, which I was still building, immediate feedback from the client, and a goal of some sort for the session. And even moments of "psychic entropy" during session were just really good information for me to use .... to figure out why we weren't connecting and the session was sagging.

      I experience flow while hanging out with ds and playing, but of course I can't be doing that all day. Maybe my expectations are too high, how much flow can I really expect during a single day? I don't know ....

      What are you thinking about your own maintenance activities? Do you have hobbies or favorite activities that have fallen by the wayside since you have had kids?

      RachelD

      by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 07:40:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • well yes (0 / 0)

        and honestly, if I had to name the one Big Thing that really bummed me out about parenting, it would be this. I used to be a full-time on-the-road folksinger in my early 20s, living out of the van and all that. Got tired of being so broke all the time, took a job using my schoolin' and segued seamlessly into working mom. It's a startling transition.

        I haven't written a song in years, and a 'good' night flow-wise has me doing laundry while watching Stargate reruns instead of, oh, just watching Stargate reruns. The other night I sewed a really bad dress with ragged seams for DD. I have knit half a scarf. One kitchen wall is painted, green, one coat. This drives me absolutely crazy.

        It's hard not to translate how I spend my time (maintenance vs flow) into "who I am" as a human being. But it's also important to be honest that after an all-day job, dinner, bath, bed, chores, it's just not realistic to then turn around and try to do something flow-y.

        if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

        by thais on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 07:55:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Wow (0 / 0)

          That really was a radical shift in lifestyle. Couldn't be more different really.

          I like your comment about how we spend our time compared to who we are as human beings. Not the same thing, and it's worth remembering that.

          And I do remember thinking about MC, how much maintenance stuff does he do that he can conjure up the energy and effort for flow activities. And he does say the number one barrier to flow is the extra effort it takes. I keep thinking that it's worth it though somehow, since flow activities should feed and energize once I'm in them.

          How did you make that transition from full time traveler song writer and singer to settled down working mom?

          RachelD

          by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 08:41:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • without thought (0 / 0)

            :) jk, mostly. Using my degree (in forest ecology, as a wetlands research assistant) was something I really did want to do for a while, and I had a lot of debt. My thought was to pay it off and then move down to new orleans and work and play music, but after getting married 'we' got preggers pretty quickly, and the hubs is a musician, and the health insurance/diaper money/ mortgage is important, so, well... but it does make one feel a bit stuck.

            i mean, we do have friends that take the kids on the road, but it's looking pretty miserable from here. i've seen children in venues late at night eating marachino cherries and lookin' pissed. that way of living and kids is just totally incompatible unless you have an on-the-road babysitter... i think melissa ethridge does. but her partner stays in the tour bus.

            back to the flow part, yes, the activities do feed and energize us when we're in them, but that effort hump at times is just enormous. What Amy said about large stretches of uninterrupted time makes me remember those, and SALIVATE. There will be a time, though, when DD (and the one-day impending next child) will be a little older, right? I just try to remember that there will be a time After.

            if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

            by thais on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:10:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • Marachino cherries (0 / 0)

              Aw, what a visual. I can't imagine that life on the road for a really young kid feels that great. Of course, if we were all Melissa Ethridge, or Gywnnie, or Madonna, wouldn't life be grand :).

              Stretches of interrupted time is one of the "requirements" for flow, or at least more conducive. Geez. I do think it's possible without it, but tougher. I keep thinking if I adjust my expectations about uninterrupted time, I wouldn't "need" it so much. It does seem like a luxury.

              RachelD

              by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:59:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        • Like (0 / 0)

          I like that comment too, that how we spend our time is not "Who we are" on some days.

          And also that at the end of a long day, doing something Flow-y is just not realistic.

          by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 08:50:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      • More (0 / 0)

        That's awesome that your job allows you to experience Flow.  When you think of it, that's the ideal work situation, what else could be better.

        I know for me, reframing the Maintenance into things like "Making my home cozy for my children" instead of "Doing dishes again and tidying again" helped me a lot.  At least then, the activities have purpose.  I think that having a well-run home, or at least a functioning home from a housekeeping perspective, is something that everyone thrives on.

        I did have periods of Flow when I worked.  My last job was in an office, working in a marketing department.  But the moments were few and far between, marked with way too many meetings and interruptions and the inevitable dramas of office life.

        I love teaching, which I have done in various settings (tutoring, test prep classes, training employees), although I am not a certified teacher.  That's really when I Flow.

        I have no hobbies that get me into Flow.  Maybe hiking; I used to love that. Will have to make more time for that.  But again, that takes energy and planning, things that are in short supply around here.

        Good question, how much Flow is reasonable to expect in a single day?

        Also, what I am realizing even as I write this is that Flow takes work, planning, energy, time.  No wonder sitting in front of the TV is so appealing.

        by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 08:48:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • right (0 / 0)

          and I think we begin to blame ourselves for not doing these things at the end of our long days, like if I was a better person I'd make the curtains for the sun room at 11 at night and experience a little flow. But no. That's just masochistic.

          Which makes me say, it's really how we're forced to structure our lives that's masochistic. We should have time to take care of the house and children and work and flow (which is beginning to feel synonymous with art), yes, of course.

          Which is why I told DH that I'm not having another baby until he makes enough, one way or another, for me to work part time. I think when I was working part time I did manage to bake the cookies and play the banjo. I think. Can't remember, it's all a wash now :)

          if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

          by thais on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:16:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Yep (0 / 0)

            I think our society romanticizes 'work'.  It's not only supposed to be the thing that pays the bills, but it is also supposed to bring you into Flow; it's supposed to be your 'art'.

            For some people their work is their Flow, which is wonderful and convenient.  Because then at the end of the day, when your 'work' is done, you've had your Flow and you're ready to do all the Maintenance.

            But for many of us, we're spending so much of our time not Flowing, that to add another requirement of an activity that induces Flow is totally unrealistic.

            by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:47:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        • Yes, especially (0 / 0)

          when my favorites shows are so darned good :). I haven't found good replacements for SATC and Six Feet Under. I never got into the Sopranos. Good thing Law and Order just keeps on going.

          As I read your post, I suddenly thought about Feng Shui. I don't know very much about it, but you are totally right that a clean, neat, and thought out space is very good for the soul and psyche. The opposite clearly doesn't feel good. This feels motivating on the cleaning front, and perks me up about it - thank you.

          OT - but have you ever thought of being a science teacher? It's so hard to find trained scientists who then become teachers, you could have a job anywhere you wanted, and even part time if you wanted. And you already have a master's, so that's pretty good pay. That's how it is in California anyway.

          RachelD

          by RachelD on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:03:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • I have (0 / 0)

            I have thought about becoming a science teacher.  I think I could do alternate route and I imagine since it's science I would have a good shot.

            But then I get all wound up in whether to try to teach in a public school, which would mean I would have to work 25 years to get the pension, or go try private, which wouldn't have that restriction, but probably pays less.  And then I think about taking the Praxis.  And then I finish this up with the thought of 15 year olds lighting up bunsen burners.  And then I go watch TV.

            I'm digging Sopranos, Entourage, Old Christine, LOST, The Office, Grey's Anatomy, so we keep busy.  Then we started watching DVDs of The Wire and since we have four seasons to catch up on, we are busy.

            by NJmom on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:05:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

Permalink | 24 comments