Mother Talkers

The Preschool Bully

by progressiveinky

Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:20:27 AM PDT

I know we've discussed bullies here in the past.  Over the past couple of months our family has been dealing with a preschool bully.  Up until today we've been treating it like any other developmental issue.  We tell our 2 year old how to put his hand up and say, "Stop.  That's not nice.  I don't want to play with you."  We've been completely focused on teaching him how to manage the situation.  I've been telling myself that our son is just more sensitive than the other children.  He needs better coping skills.  But today I had just about had it and went in to talk with the teacher (who is a lovely woman, BTW).

Like most mornings in the past several months, our boy had a violent reaction to going to preschool this morning.  He wakes up each morning informing me that "today is not a school day."  He does pretty well but eats breakfast very slowly.  When I mention putting on his clothes, he loses it.  Once dressed, he gives in and does well until we pull up to the school.  Then he cries and tells me how he doesn't want to go to school.  After I got him calmed down, he told me he's afraid of the bully, as he's done a few times.

On the way to school I thought out exactly what I should say to the teacher.  I drop him off and let her know that I'd like to chat in the hallway.  She was really great and we talked about the problem in depth.  I was not prepared for what she told me about what is really going on at school.  She's apparently been trying to deal with the bully all year and my child is certainly not the only child being bullied.

So the question quickly turned to "How do you deal with a bully whose parents encourage the behavior?"  The teacher (I'm sure as a violation of policy, but she's clearly desperate) gave me several examples and specifics on the family dynamic of the bully.

When the grandmother (an MSW who works with kids) was told about the bullying, she overlooked the fact that her grandson is a bully.  She focused on the fact that the other children are not reacting well to his behavior.  The teacher was told to work with the other kids.

A second situation she told me was that after the Easter weekend, the aunt of the bully told a story about how the bully punched his cousin in the face and knocked her down.  The aunt claimed to not understand where this behavior came from.  The teacher told the aunt that this is frequent behavior for the bully and the aunt laughed it off.

A third situation was when the bully's older sister was in the gym with the younger classes.  A teacher heard the older sister say to the bully, "Go over there and punch __ in the face."  He, of course, did it.  

I've been naive to believe that other parents are working with and cooperating with the teachers.  It's been suggested that the teacher frame concerns to the bully's parents as "His aggressive behavior is causing him to not be well liked among his peers" in an effort to bring it back to how it will hurt their child.  God knows, they don't seem to care about the physical safety of the other children.  

Tags: bullies, bully, parenting, preschool, teacher (all tags)

Permalink | 70 comments

  • so sorry! (0 / 0)

    I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.  If the situation is this bad, the teacher or rather the pre-school, should decide to send the child packing.  Maybe then the parents would get the message that agressive behavior has negative consequences.

    I have had moments when my jaw has dropped to the floor upon hearing things said to sons, mostly from fathers.  I've heard men say to their pre-school sons, "Don't act like a girl!" I have heard them say, "You throw like a sissy" or "quit crying like a baby."  I mean, truly, it shocked me, but I guess in certain families this is the attitude toward raising your children.  

    It's interesting to hear that his older sister was egging him on as well.  Clearly, this is a family for whom violence is a way of life.

    Miles and His Favorites: The World As Seen By a Seven Year Old

    by Hillary on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:05:58 AM PDT

  • Teacher should take a stand (0 / 0)

    I'm confused as to why the teacher doesn't want to come right out and say to the parents of the bully that it's not okay for their child to hurt other kids while he's in school. She's responsible for the safety of all the children in her care and  she's entitled to say that he can't act that way. If they don't appreciate her position maybe it could be suggested that they find another preschool for him.

    That said, I do have sympathy for the bully who it sounds like isn't being taught how to socialize with others. It's true that he won't be liked by his peers (or his teachers for that matter) if this behavior continues. Will that explanation be enough to motivate his parents to work on changing his behavior? I wonder.

    by Stacey on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:08:16 AM PDT

  • your son needs your protection (0 / 0)

    I think it's terrific that you're teaching him to stand up for himself, and for sure this won't be the only bully he'll ever face in this life.  My own research suggests that your son will probably do better academically, socially, and emotionally than the bully because of the way you are raising him (to be emotionally aware and responsible).

    However, right now, he doesn't feel safe.  And it's not because he's somehow inadequate.  It's because he's dealing with an a**hole.  And in all likelihood, his 2 year old self isn't quite equipped for that yet.  (Yes, I just called a preschooler an a**hole.  It happens.  It's not pretty, and it's a very unfortunate child whose parents don't bother to teach him how to act, but it happens.)

    If the teacher can't or won't stop the bully from terrorizing the whole group, or your child in particular, it's up to individual parents to protect their children.  Do you have time to temporarily observe / intervene in the classroom?  Can you keep your child home -- explaining quite clearly to the teacher and school director exactly why?  It sends a powerful message to a child when he says, "I'm scared" and a grown-up says, "I will help you with that."  

    I've learned that schools fall back on the "your child needs to learn better coping" speech when they don't want to deal with what are likely to be bully parents -- or even just awkward conversations.  I see it over and over again.  In my opinion, it's wrong and should be stopped.

    by mamacita on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:24:18 AM PDT

    • I hear you on this (0 / 0)

      I initially wanted to do all of what you suggest.  I definitely introduced the observation idea to the teacher.  She was open to it by either video (which they have the capability of doing and will do upon request) or physically being there.  I have the same mindset that you point out, that my son needs our protection.  My non-practicing but adult-therapy-trained clinical psychologist husband says that it's better to teach the coping skills and as long as he's not in any real physical danger (which I'm still not sure of), we should continue to work with the preschool.  I'm not so sure that I agree.  We're certainly not above insisting that the child be removed if it comes to that, but we do love this school and his teacher.  My guess is that the added factor here that no one is discussing is that it's a church-run preschool, the aunt works in the church office, and the family goes to church there.

      "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

      by progressiveinky on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:35:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • oy! (0 / 0)

        now that's a horse of a different color. i have found over the years that whenever a teacher's child is in the mix it gets sticky.  we had a similar but not nearly as dire a situation with  my dd's pre K class in that the teacher's dd was in the class.  the dynamic is different between a parent and child vs teacher/parent and child and in the classroom it can cause difficulties for all.  a small church run nursery school will likely have difficulty in addressing this one given the family connection.  i'd still insist and see how far they will go to correct situation.  i suspect you'll have to be very persistent.

        by parentalunit1 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:45:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • I agree with your DH (0 / 0)

        I really do.  But right now, your DS's coping skills sound perfectly great!  He's using his words to tell you he's afraid, because using his words on the bully is not working.  If even the teacher is feeling powerless in the face of this powerful child, imagine how all those little kids must be feeling.  

        I think your instincts are absolutely correct -- that your DS will need these skills and it's never too soon to start teaching them.  The wild card in this scenario is kids who don't respond appropriately to his appropriate strategies, and adults who can't or won't enforce safe conduct.  It's a lot to expect a 2-year-old to have a Plan B.

        I would recommend that if you can, do the observation in person.  You're not trying to spy; you're trying to change the climate into one that is safe.  The purpose is twofold: To let your son know you're there for him, and to let the bully know you are on to him.  I can't tell you how many times I have had the experience of nonverbally facing down a pint-size bully, and having a whole classroom dynamic be transformed. You don't need to hover or do anything overt.  If the bully pulls anything, on anyone, matter-of-factly tell him you can't allow him to do that at school.  I personally have experienced healing moments with bullies, who feel so cared for when someone sets and holds a reasonable limit for them.  They don't like being a**holes.  It doesn't feel good.

        Kids deserve to feel safe at school.  The bully needs help, too, but it's not your DS's job to raise him.

        I apologize if I am coming on too strong here.  As you can tell, this is a topic that is close to my heart.  I really respect where you are coming from and I believe you will do what is best, whatever that ends up being.

        by mamacita on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:49:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Yes, I think it has gotten to this point (0 / 0)

          We've been teaching the coping skills for quite a while and it's clear that it's not working.  You are not coming on too strong-- it sounds like the debate that I've had in my head all day.  Obviously the teacher has also tried everything that usually works for most kids.  They read books about it, they talk about how other kids won't want to play with you if you are doing these things, they discuss what to do if a friend is doing something you don't like, etc.  The difficult factors of family involvement with the church, plus just the fact that usually parents will take action with a little discussion (or at least it's been that way for most of the parents there) just increases the problem.  I will work on finding time to observe in person.  The teacher really does want to work on this.  She said that she is fully aware that she has to do something.  I think this week it's just finally come to our attention that what we've been trying isn't going to work.  

          "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

          by progressiveinky on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:59:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • unfortunately the teacher (0 / 0)

            is valiantly trying to inject a syringe of healthy behavior skills into an oceanic dysfunctional family system.  She doesn't have the kid enough hours a day to really change his response set, is my guess.

            If you take away the well-intentioned teacher, the unfortunate bully, his intimidating family, the church, the office, the gym -- what you have left is your son.  He's the only part of this complicated equation you can positively influence, right now.

            Sigh.  It can be so damn complex, sometimes.

            by mamacita on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:07:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          • I'm curious (0 / 0)

            what the ages of this group are and what is the ratio of adults to children?  You mention your son is two, but what about the rest of the kids?  All about the same or a multiage setting?  

            I'm also curious what, if any, consequences the bully suffers for his behavior at school.  Reading stories and talking about the issue is an important piece here, but it's only a piece.  Especially if we're talking about a group of two year olds.  Is there an adult who can "shadow" the bully?  I can't tell you how many times I've caught an arm mid swing and said "I won't let you hurt my friends. That's not okay."  What is the classroom staff doing to prevent the bullying and how are they responding to it when it happens?  I'm not real big on "time outs" but I have no problem with having a child who hits sit beside me while I comfort the child who was hurt and then have the hitter spend a little more time at my side until he's ready to try again with his friends.  The classroom staff may be quite responsive in this regard, it just isn't clear to me from your description.

            The problem here is that your son isn't the problem!  It not his job to protect himself.  That's the responsibility of the grown-ups... and he really, really needs to know that the grown-ups have his back.  

            by TeachPeace on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:00:27 PM PDT

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            • been out a few days (0 / 0)

              To answer some of your questions.  The kids are all between 2 and 3.  There are 3 adults to 12 children most of the time (our state has lower ratios by law, so this is a good ratio for around here). They video tape the day so that teachers can look back for training.  My understanding is that after last week it sort of came to a head so that they are stepping up the discipline, monitoring, etc.  

              "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

              by progressiveinky on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:20:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      • Coping skills (0 / 0)

        I see your husband's point - we all need to deal with the bullies in life. I would say from your diary that your son has excellent coping skills for his tender age. He is willing to rally each morning to get ready for school, so he is regulating his behavior. He expresses his emotions and is reaching out for support - major resilency skills. He's doing great. But it's too much overall, it sounds like.

        He probably shows that he has lots of other coping skills - making other friends at the school, participating in and enjoying the activities, liking his teacher ....

        RachelD

        by RachelD on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:56:19 AM PDT

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        • Yes, he does well (0 / 0)

          It helps that he's the most verbal in his class.  The teacher pointed out this morning that the other kids are not really able to express their emotions like he is and that his ability to tell us what's going on is probably an indicator that all the kids are secretly being terrorized.

          "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

          by progressiveinky on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:00:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      • Lemons into lemonade (0 / 0)

        Well, if the aunt works there and they go to church there, I would count one more person as the go-to person: the minister or priest. Someone is responsible for creating this community of shared values - and some of their members are actively undermining those values.

        In your shoes, I would approach all the parents, the director, and the minister/priest, letting everyone know what I am up to - total transparency, even with the bully's family. Ask the other parents to participate in the dialogue, so as to actively back you up.

        Having gone to a very small parish school with parents who were actively involved in the church as members and committee and board members and whatever, I can guarantee you that everyone knows that this family is a pain in the a$$ - you will not be the first one to bring this up. Steady, diplomatic, and very firm engagement on your part, with them really getting that you won't give up, will most likely get you some changes.

        RachelD

        by RachelD on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:08:02 AM PDT

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        • Great idea (0 / 0)

          The minster or priest actually may be able to influence this family positively, even when teachers and peers can't.  And if he can't, at least it will hopefully get some changes made.  I can't believe there are parents out there like that.  But it's even more stunning that the extended family is in on it!

          by Erin on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:45:03 AM PDT

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    • totally agree. (0 / 0)

      time to exert quite a bit of pressure on the school's director imo.   i agree that i wouldn't send him in until they address the situation.  i'd suspect other parents will support you and act with you if they can.

      by parentalunit1 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:37:41 AM PDT

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    • To tie this back to previous (0 / 0)

      conversations, this is one of the reasons parents give for pulling a child out of a particular school...they are told that whatever problem the child is having is, in effect, his/her problem...they just need to be "less sensitive", "learn how to cope", "learn how to deal with change", etc.  Sometimes children do need to tackle these issues, however, by the time a parent decides to change schools you can bet that they've tried all of the techniques available and that the child is still being bullied or having his/her needs unmet.

      by tjb22 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:05:04 AM PDT

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      • I just hate it when the kid (0 / 0)

        gets scapegoated or pressured to be different.  Why does the nice, well-behaved child have to be the one who moves?  

        Something about this thread is really taking me to an "it's not fair!  Teacher, it's not fair!" place!

        by mamacita on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:49:43 AM PDT

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  • Totally agree (0 / 0)

    with mamacita. It is a lot easier on the teacher and the director to deal with the polite and adjusted parents of all the kids who are being bullied, rather than be direct with the parents of the bully, who probably are highly defensive at best.

    Given that it is preschool, which means you are paying, I would talk to the other parents, and either individually or collectively raise holy hell until the kid is gone. I guess I am assuming the parents won't intervene to change the bully's behavior.

    Along with the other parents, document, document, document - other than that conversation with the teacher, which as you say was in desperation.

    RachelD

    by RachelD on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:43:35 AM PDT

    • I agree with the agreeing (0 / 0)

      I totally agree with Rachel who agrees with Mamacita.  If it is turning school into something your son dreads raising bloody hell is the right thing to do.

      Plus think of the message it gives your son - that communicating with you about problems he is facing is a great thing for him to do.

      Good luck - I am sure it is a very difficult situation for you.

      by paida on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 03:02:20 PM PDT

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  • I have a friend (0 / 0)

    who pulled her child from an expensive Montessori preschool in town because the teacher refused to address the issue of bullying.  It happens everywhere, and if the teacher isn't proactive about it, it'll just keep happening.

    I have another friend of an 8th grader who's been dealing with a kid bullying her child for the past 3 years.  After numerous meetings with teachers, principals and guidance counselors, the mother of the bully refuses to see that what her child is doing is wrong.  She blames it on her husband being deployed in Iraq...that her child is just acting out because of that.  However, that doesn't excuse his actions.  

    We too had issues with bullying on my son's bus this year.  Turns out, the kid bullies lots of kids just like the preschool bully you are dealing with.  The parents of the bully refused to do anything about it until the bus driver threatened to ban him from the bus.  Sadly, until the parents take action to stop their child from bullying, I just don't see how he'll ever quit.  

    "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream..."

    by 1plain1peanut on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:13:02 PM PDT

  • I've been struggling (0 / 0)

    with my answer since reading your post and others' comments, Shannon. I wish I could be as conciliatory and fair-minded as some of you, my esteemed MT pals, but I'm just furious.

    We send our children to institutions like preschool and daycare under the bedrock, contractual stipulation that the school has a duty of care to protect our children. In exchange for these institutions taking on this tremendous responsibility, we pay them. To my mind, your school is failing its duty of care, not just to your child, but to the other children who have been victim to this bully.

    Your son sounds like he has excellent coping skills, particularly considering he is only 2 years old. I salute you and your husband for that, and am going to teach my daughter along the lines of what you've done. If this situation persists, I fear it won't teach him more "coping skills," but rather to fear others and lose trust that his teachers are figures of authority and responsibility - he does not need that, what with 12+ years of education ahead of him!

    On the one hand, I am sympathetic to this child - there is obviously something wrong in his family environment. On the other hand, the school must take firm, definite action to resolve this situation - whether it's the church priest/pastor speaking directly with this family, or the teacher clearly laying it out that should this behavior persist, their child is not welcome in their school. I know that expelling the child does not treat the behavior, but this is not your responsibility, nor the responsibilty of the school. Your responsibility is to your son, and the school's responsibility is to fulfil its duty of care over the children who attend their school.

    by Rachel on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:13:12 PM PDT

    • I totally agree with Rachel (0 / 0)

      I would like to know this - what policies and procedures does this school have concerning these types of issues?  Every single preschool my children have attended has had a clear cut and direct policy on bullying, biting and other unacceptable behaviors.  What exactly are their procedures?  Are they acceptable to you?  Are they following their procedures?

      My daughter was bit in her first preschool.  We were dutifully informed of it with written notes and a conversation with her teacher and the aide.  She was given first aid and suffered a pretty ugly looking bruise for several days.  The school's policy required them to counsel the parents of the biter and to inform them it was their one and only warning.  If there was a second bite, she would be expuled from the school.  Of course, this was especially difficult since her mother taught at the school.  Two days later she bit another child in her class, again leaving serious marks.  She was immediately removed from the classroom and her mother took her home.  

      Despite the fact that the school would eventually lose a teacher over it, it was the right thing to do.  I felt like my child was protected at all times because they followed their own policies and acted on behalf of my child.  

      Your son's teacher sounds very nice and understanding.  And I know many feel that bullying is not as serious as biting. (I would disagree due to the long term potential effects).  And I applaud your efforts to teach and comfort your child. He is quite a trooper to deal with this every time he enters his school.

      But IMHO, it's time the school stood up and put an end to this.  Bullying does not belong in school or anywhere.  And frankly until parents, teachers and school administrators start drawing the line, the behavior is allowed to continue; the bully believes it is acceptable behavior, his parents have no consequences for their poor parenting.

      Anne W
      Gifts By Delivery

      by Anne W on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 06:55:20 PM PDT

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      • Just wondering... (0 / 0)

        I was a little surprised when I read this:

        And I know many feel that bullying is not as serious as biting.

        Do people generally regard biting as a bigger issue than bullying?  I know biting is usually a huge deal to the parents of the child who was bitten and often to the parents of the biter as well.  But, biting is a pretty typical developmental issue, especially for toddlers and young preschoolers.  So is hitting for that matter. Lots of children bite or hit, especially before the have adequate language, impulse control and/or tools to handle frustration/fear/etc.  I see bullying as a much, much bigger issue.  To me, bullying implies deliberate aggressive behavior beyond that which, although undesirable, is not uncommon developmentally.

        by TeachPeace on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 08:35:36 PM PDT

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        • I can only relate those experiences that (0 / 0)

          we have shared with our kids.  Biting has been taken very seriously in my kids schools.  In above comment, I share my story about my DD.  In an another school, there was another biting incident, unrelated to my child, where the child was also removed.

          As for bullying, we have been on both sides.  My son was aggressive when we first put him in preschool.  He would take toys, and even push a little.  He was very protective of his one friend and would not let anyone else play with him.  The first few weeks were embarrassing for me as a parent hearing about his behavior and very concerning about him and of course the other children in his class.  The teacher was calm and requested that I bring him 3 days instead of 2 days a week.  She believed that his discomfort and the newness of being at school was the source of his need to be aggressive.  She worked with him (and included sitting him by her side if necessary) and in a few short weeks he was fine.

          My DD has a female bully in her class this year.  The teachers were aware of it (although seemingly oblivious to the extent), said nothing to any of the  parents (kids will be kids).  When I found out about and spoke with my DD she was upset, but did not feel like there was anything she could do about it.  And nothing was done about it, until another little girl in the class went home with a bruise on her head from when the bully smashed her head into the concrete in the play-yard.  A small amount of intervention on the part of the teachers and lots of role-playing with a couple of little girls in the class and they backed her down.  

          So from my own experience, biting has shown to be taken much more seriously and with consequences for child and family.  And bullying has been overlooked, or downplayed.  I do believe that sometimes it is also thought that it can be overcome, like in the case of my DS, and with the proper techniques, intervention and caring, it can.

          My daughter does not remember being bitten, but she will remember some of the stuff the bully in her class did this year for awhile to come.  Hopefully, we as her parents were able to help her turn it into a victory for her self-esteem.

          Anne W
          Gifts By Delivery

          by Anne W on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 08:42:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Just curious (0 / 0)

            How old were the biters in these incidents?  A friend of mine had her son expelled from daycare due to biting when he was under 18 months old.  It turned out that he was getting his molars.  In fact, the poor kid had all 4 come in at once so of course he was biting anything he could get his hands on and he was too young to really understand that he shouldn't bite other kids.  It always seemed to me that the daycare should have recognized this and given the poor little guy something to teethe on.

            I would agree that bullying should be taken seriously although at 2 I really wonder about the supervision.  I have a 3 year old boy and a 17 month old boy.  They play rough sometimes although they are good when they are with other children.  I just wonder if a two year old would really intentionally bully or if there is something else going on.

            by music teacher on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 07:43:39 PM PDT

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            • well in my daughters case (0 / 0)

              she was 2 and the biter was 2.  Don't know if she was teething, but her biting was pretty substantial.  She bit 4 kids in 3 days.  I think she was having trouble communicating.  Some kids that age bite when frustrated.  But the school had a firm policy that one time was a warning and two times meant s/he was out, for the protection of the other children.

              Our bullying experience this year was with a 5 year old girl.  And it was true bullying, both emotional (and little girls can be very cruel) and physical.  And the little girl in question was the youngest of 7 kids from multiple marriages and the youngest by several years.  She was around a lot of older siblings and in likelihood picked up behaviors more advanced than the other kids in her class.  But she was also just plain mean sometimes.

              Anne W
              Gifts By Delivery

              by Anne W on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:00:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  • Is this Alan? (0 / 0)

    So you're commenting on a thread about bullies by bullying the poster.  LOSER

    by music teacher on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:16:37 PM PDT

    • i thought imus ... (0 / 0)

      found a new home already! ugh...yes, please leave.

      by parentalunit1 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:23:10 PM PDT

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    • I deleted that post. (0 / 0)

      Too much frackin' and fuckin' and namecallin' and bitchslappin' to be any help to anyone. Forget that action.

      by Amy on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:43:02 PM PDT

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    • eh? (0 / 0)

      I missed this one. Please say you're not commenting on me, Music Teacher?!?

      by Rachel on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 08:34:52 PM PDT

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      • phew...i just am reading (0 / 0)

        this thread and i couldn't figure out what the problem was with your comment...but i guess it was one that got deleted not yours...  yours was right on..(as usual..)

        karen

        by karen m on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:31:11 PM PDT

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        • thanks (0 / 0)

          Karen. I was totally freaking out for about 15 seconds, rereading my post and wondering what I did wrong!

          by Rachel on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:35:26 PM PDT

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          • Sorry! (0 / 0)

            I have the option of deleting all the comments that are replies to the offending comment. Perhaps I should do that in the future to avoid confusion..  I just didn't want to confuse the people who responded to the vicious post  and have them wondering where their comments went, too.

            Also, I like to leave a little note when I delete, to give people a sense of why I make the decision to scrub someone's two cents.

            I'm interested to hear what you think the best approach is.

            by Amy on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:03:47 PM PDT

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            • I just misread (0 / 0)

              Amy; I didn't read down the full cascade of comments before I posted my own "whaddup?" comment. It became clear once I took the time to scroll down. As the misunderstanding was on my part and an error in not reading fully, I think your approach is just fine.

              Geez. Sorry there was such a nasty comment on this topic. Hope Shannon didn't see it and get offended...

              by Rachel on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:09:07 PM PDT

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              • OMG! (0 / 0)

                I didn't see this message.  I was out for a few days over the weekend and I'm just getting back to read over these comments. Please share the gist of the offending comment.  I'll probably get a kick out of it.

                "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

                by progressiveinky on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:30:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            • i think the way you (0 / 0)

              did it worked as well...it took a few seconds to understand something went missing, but then a relieved sigh not to have to don the battle gear a la A-la-n

              karen

              by karen m on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 06:44:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            • I think the best course of action for something (0 / 0)

              like this in the future is to either a) delete the original post and all subsequent references to it (including those that are not nested below the original comment; or b) replace the original text of the post with an italicized "post deleted by moderator for xxx" or similar wording and leave the subsequent comments in place.  Anything else is just too confusing.

              Also, I waited several days from the original posting to comment on this just in case it was one of those things I am overly sensitive to in my early pregnancy state (read:  pretty much everything these days ;-)).  However, it's still bothering me, so I'm going to speak up. Alan (SlackerInc.) was permanently banned from this forum some time ago.  Yet the name-calling continues (insinuating that "nannyville" is really Alan, the comments re: the circumcision diary, etc., etc.).  I know emotions were running high when the decision was made to ban him from the MT forum, but this sort of junior-high school behavior of continually taunting someone who can't defend themselves (and being sanctioned by the "popular crowd", i.e., the moderators) really annoys the heck out of me.  

              I would hope that in the future the MT moderators would treat such comments in the same way  as Nannyville's; simply delete them and move on.  At the very least, it would be nice if the mods didn't jump on the "let's gang up on the loser" bandwagon.

              by ChristineB on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 06:07:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • Thanks for the feedback (0 / 0)

                I'm not sure which moderators you're talking about, but I won't take your comment personally because I don't think I've engaged in any "ganging up on the loser" behavior. I had really mixed feelings about banning Alan, and I later had a nice personal email conversation with him about what had happened and why I decided to agree to ban him. He was no longer angry, and was more contemplative. The exchange was illuminating on both our parts and mutually respectful.

                It is likely that he is still reading the site, so I don't like to read comments that would bait him. Part of the reason I banned him is because the entire discourse would just plummet, bringing out the worst in everyone involved. The namecalling and viciousness made me wince. Still does.

                I'm committed to a certain level of civility on this site, and that extends to how I view my role as moderator. That said, I'm still new at this role and doing the best I can to preserve the positive aspects of the culture that has developed here.

                by Amy on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 03:54:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                • no, it wasn't you (0 / 0)

                  Specifically, I was referring to the post on 3/29 by NJ Mom, with the first comment by Elisa announcing his banning.  She referred to him as "SlackerDad", which I thought was totally unnecessary and offensive.  I was also bothered by Erika posting his email rebuttal - particularly after the point had been made that you all didn't want to give him any more attention than he'd already gotten.  What was the point, other than to encourage the fifteen negative comments that followed (and to suppress any comments from folks who may have felt differently)?

                  Personally, I would be quite surprised if he were still reading this site more than two weeks after being booted.  The opportunity for engagement/debate was likely what drew him to MT, and that's not happening now, so what would be the point?

                  by ChristineB on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 07:23:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  • The moderators banned him for different reasons. (0 / 0)

                    I can't read minds, so I don't know why Erika posted his email. I do know, however, that Alan wanted us to post it and asked us to. I think it's too much of an assumption to say that she did it to suppress any comments from folks who may have felt differently.

                    The four moderators that started the MT site made the call to ban him for different reasons. Alan didn't ever really push my buttons, even though I disagreed with some of his views. I decided to ban him because he seemed to upset and inadvertently offend many women who frequent the site. People started to complain to us. I wasn't hearing from any of his defenders.

                    I didn't think he was meanspirited--he just had a social blind spot the size of a Mac truck. I didn't feel up to the challenge of explaining to him why the things he said and the way he said them were incendiary and disrespectful to the same-sex parents, adoptive parents, bottle-feeding moms, and full-time working moms who make up a big chunk of our readership.

                    In his later emails to me, Alan said that he would probably still stop by the site because he was interested in the topics that get discussed.

                    by Amy on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 10:28:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    • Clarification (0 / 0)

                      I should clarify that i do not believe Erika posted the email with the intention of suppressing different opinions, although that was the end result. (At least, it was for me.)

                      I didn't think he was meanspirited--he just had a social blind spot the size of a Mac truck.

                      <smile>I think your comment sums it up very well.  I wish the paragraph you wrote starting with this sentence had been the one that explained his being banned, rather than the more inflammatory language that was used.  But I understand that emotions were running high, and hindsight's always 20/20.

                      by ChristineB on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:26:26 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      • Alan sent me that email directly... (0 / 0)

                        ...asking me to post it. He wanted to have his final say at MT, and I gave it to him.

                        The supression of opinions was not my goal. Which is exactly why I shared my own.

                        by Erika on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:25:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  • Wow.... (0 / 0)

                    I finally found the diary where Alan got banned (I missed the whole episode because I was in the hospital, getting my exploding appendix removed). I have no idea what he said that was so awful (and I sort of wish I did), so I can't say whether it was deserved. But I agree that everyone should stop baiting him. Be nice, girls. He's already been slapped down. Don't kick him too.

                    by aussieyank on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:15:02 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      • Dear lord, no (0 / 0)

        It was someone named Nannyville who launched into the most vile, profanity laden abusive tirade at progressiveinky.  I thought it might be Alan because I suspect that the poster was not a woman and the writing was shall we say strongly opinionated.  In all honesty, Alan never wrote anything that downright abusive so it's probably some random troll.

        by music teacher on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:43:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Such a tough situation (0 / 0)

    I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.  It sounds like the idea to observe the classroom and show your child (and the bully) that you will be there for him is a good idea.  I wish that the bully's parents were being as thoughtful about their actions as you are being.

    Nannyville, it's my understanding that MotherTalkers is a forum for parents of all stripes to share ideas, concerns, and thoughts, and to engage in respectful debate.  I must say I am disappointed in the tone of your response to this post; I feel it to be highly disrespectful and downright rude.  I am sure that progressiveinky is feeling the urgency of the situation -- this is, after, all, happening to HER child, and I am sure that she is not an "idiot."  

    by juice on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:20:18 PM PDT

  • Amen (0 / 0)

    You are protesting an adult bully by being one, but we can't protect the 2 year old.

    This is the kind of repeated abuse that can result in a second personality to protect the self. The only thing in the child's favor is that the abuse is not random. It is predictable. He knows he will be tortured every day. I hope you don't expect him to be unaffected by this, as an adult.  

    by Village on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:29:56 PM PDT

    • oh good lord (0 / 0)

      Obviously progressiveinky and her DH are loving, thoughtful, concerned, informed, caring parents, and OBVIOUSLY they are taking the situation very seriously and considering lots of opinions (not to mention their own excellent instincts) as they decide what to do next.  They are being respectful of many relationships simultaneously, while trying to do the right thing for their son.

      Their son is NOT going to be negatively affected by this as an adult.  He is not going to develop a "second personality."  Dissociation, which I think is what you're referencing, results from sustained, high-intensity, unrelieved trauma -- NOT what this child is enduring.  Not by a very long shot.

      What he will take from this, and other situations  where he witnesses his parents taking this kind of care, is that interpersonal relationships are complex and important, and thought should be paid before making big decisions.  

      Was it your intention, in posting that comment, to be helpful?

      by mamacita on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 06:02:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Yes (0 / 0)

        I was trying to protect the child. Sorry.

        by Village on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 08:23:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I didn't read the post (0 / 0)

          you were saying "Amen" too; it was deleted before I got to it. So I apologize if I jumped down your throat without a good reason.  

          We're all concerned for the child, most especially his parents.  I hope you can see how they are working towards a good solution, and how hurtful it might have been for his mother to read that her child will be permanently scarred by this experience?    

          by mamacita on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 08:59:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • thanks mamacita.. (0 / 0)

            your wise guiding hand is always appreciated in these discussions :)  some forget that keeping parents whole keeps child whole.  i find it to be a frustratingly common with divorced parents as they pile on the abuse, anger and hostility, perhaps not in front of their children, but ultimately the child suffers because the parent suffers.  the concept of taking care of parents is so important.  i learned this early when just after divorcing i had a terrible experience with my ex that affected my dd.  i sought help for her and the very kind therapist zoned in on me and recommended that first step was to make me whole again.  it was the best thing that could have happened for both me and my dd, and ultimately to some extent for my ex.

            by parentalunit1 on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 09:25:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • thank you (0 / 0)

              So nice to be referred to as "wise / guiding" when what I feel is wildly passionate and afraid of stepping on toes....

              How great that you found someone talented to help you and your family through a tough situation. It's like putting your own mask on first on the airplane, but it takes a lot of presence of mind to actually do that.  Kudos to you.

              When I was in a position to help parents be whole in order to help them be better moms (working with teen mothers), I reacted like Village did: Becoming very invested in the kids and not being properly careful or nurturing with the moms at times.  It didn't help anyone for me to alienate those girls, but sometimes I was judgemental (don't leave the baby alone in the room!  put out that cigarette in the car!) and it could not have been helpful for them to feel diminished by me. That was a major frustration for me at the time (my attitude), and one reason I so admire Teach Peace, who's doing the same work but so much more capably.  

              Of course, I don't think there's a comparison here between the teen mothers I got so frustated with and progressiveinky, at all.  So maybe that made it easier for me to identify with and defend her.

              by mamacita on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 09:35:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • it's a great lesson (0 / 0)

                for all of us.  i suspect most of us "feel" passionately about protecting a child.  and an automatic response is to lash out at the adult.  your training along with teach peace and i think erin and rachel d's too is so valuable...it's the whole keeping your "eye on the prize" thing.

                the step parenting discussion made me realize how much we as society can benefit from more exposure and training overall on this issue of keeping parents whole.

                by parentalunit1 on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 09:41:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              • Thank you Mamacita :-) (0 / 0)

                I completely relate to this.  There are times when I need to check my attitude on an hourly basis and inadequacy is the feeling of the day!  I have to remind myself that the hardest moms to connect with are the ones that most need the connection.  

                I love parentalunit1's comment that keeping parents whole keeps children whole.  I'm taking that one back to my staff!  Might make a nice poster on my office wall :-)

                by TeachPeace on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 02:15:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    • RE: Village posting (0 / 0)

      don't feed the troll!!!

      by poppygirl on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:14:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • The odds of this little boy (0 / 0)

      developing dissociative identity disorder(!) over this are pretty much none.  It's the result of severe, severe abuse, and very rare even then.  

      I see from below that you were trying to be helpful, but it's hard not to feel protective of this struggling mama who is genuinly trying to do what's best for her son.

      by Erin on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 09:26:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • ((HUGS)) (0 / 0)

    Coming in late in this discussion, to lend my support to you and your son.

    We faced a first grade bully big-time, and it was frustrating.  There's definitely a "boys will be boys" attitude that condones, even smiles at, bullying behavior.  Kids may not be at physical risk, but they certainly pay an emotional price.

    And the parents are either unaware or unconcerned.  The boy who was my daughter's bully in 2nd grade (8 years ago) has just been asked to leave his second private school in 6 years.  I feel somewhat sad for him, no one has figured out how to help him be a better citizen.

    by Sue in Queens on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 04:38:23 AM PDT

  • Wow, I never suspected (0 / 0)

    that this relatively non-controversial post could be so controversial!  Hee, hee.  I wish I hadn't been out for 4 days and could have watched it unfold.  While I certainly take this issue very seriously, we are absolutely working toward the next step in handling this situation.  I do not believe that our son will develop serious mental problems like MPD or PTSD.  Having a clinical psychologist husband, we can handle avoiding consequences that serious.  I do, however, want to handle this situation in a way that teaches my son about operating in society responsibly.  I feel like many here have validated me and offered solutions I hadn't considered.  For those of you who reacted harshly, maybe you should figure out why you feel that way.

    "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

    by progressiveinky on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:46:14 AM PDT

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