Mother Talkers

Losing My Religion

Wed Nov 29, 2006 at 05:30:22 PM PDT

Editor's Note: A very appropriate discussion to hold during the holiday season. -Elisa

In a recent telephone conversation with my mother we were discussing an upcoming family wedding.  Because the ceremony will be religiously non-traditional (read: non-Christian), this opened the door once again for her to question the religious preferences of our family of three.

Whenever the topic comes up, as it often does, I always try to remember that her religion is extremely important to her.  It fulfills all sorts of needs for her.  Further, the scripture requires that she spread the message.  After many years of trying to convert my husband and me, she is now concerned for her grandchild.  "What religion will he be raised in?" she asked, "Will you allow him to go to Vacation Bible School? Won't you teach him `Jesus Loves Me?'"  Here we go again.

First, let me say that I'm not against any form of religion.  We respect and appreciate all of the world's religions and seek a broader understanding of spirituality through studying all beliefs.  My mother does not understand this.  To her, all non-Christian teachings equate to Satan worship.  The idea of a separate religion is so foreign to her that she believes that Catholics are non-Christian.  (Please don't ask me to explain that.)  Although she is somewhat familiar with Judaism (after all, Jesus was Jewish) she does not understand that the Jewish people are not Christian or why.

As you can imagine, these conversations are difficult.  It's easy to get caught up in the details.  It's hard to explain my point of view.  Sometimes I honestly think that she feels that our not raising our son in the Christian faith is child abuse and neglect.  If she thought she could get away with it, she'd take us to court for custody based on the fact that we refuse to teach the child "Jesus Loves Me."

Many of our conversations have resulted in my effort to hang up quickly without becoming upset.  Last night's conversation was different.  I learned two major lessons:  why she is a Christian and why I am not.  

Midway into the questions she said to me, "He's really going to miss out.  When you are a child and know that Jesus loves you, it gives you such a wonderful feeling.  It's so nice to know that someone loves you."  Now, I realize that people choose one religion or another for all sorts of reasons.  And now I know the reason that my mother chooses Christianity.  

As a child, my mother had no one.  Her family consisted of four daughters with a drunk, frequently absent father and an emotionally unavailable, mean-spirited mother.  My mother found solace in Jesus at a time and in a place where she had no one.

Although I had my own despair at times growing up, Christianity was never the answer for me.  It didn't fulfill that gap for me. Perhaps my angst was not the same as that of my mother.  Not only did it not fulfill me, I didn't believe what the preacher had to say.  I just couldn't buy it and always felt like I was faking it.  

My mother's last question was, "So, what will [your son] believe in?"  The response was obvious, "Whatever he chooses."

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  • We also decided (0 / 0)

    against being a part of any organized religion.  We aren't "anti-religion", we just don't have a need to be part of any organized belief system.  I describe my own beliefs as "deist" in nature...and to be honest, they aren't all that different than the traditional beliefs that I grew up with...they're just more inclusive.  I don't believe that any particular religion has a lock on The Truth.

    Both my husband and I were brought up in traditional "church going" families.  I haven't had a problem with my parents...they seem to understand that in the end, children have to find their own way spiritually despite what we do.  My husband's parents, on the other hand, have not been understanding.  For years, we were accused of "spiritually neglecting" our children.  We were told that they would all "turn out bad"...sadly, on  my 18 year old son's last visit with his grandmother before she died last year, they had this argument all over again.  She started complaining about how we hadn't brought them up in church, etc.  He defended us.  

  • Rough one (0 / 0)

    That's a rough one.  

    Not sure if you are looking for a church (not trying to convert, because that would actually be very un-UU of me!), but if you are you might want to look into a UU church.  I used to struggle with the same questions you do from family, but now that we have a church, it is a much easier question to answer. (which is not the reason we joined, but a nice side benefit!)

    Here is a summary of what UUs believe...

    No one can see the one Light (Truth or God, call it what you will) directly, only as refracted through the cathedral windows. Every great religion teaches this insight. We cannot look God in the eye any more than we can stare at the sun without going blind. This should counsel humility and mutual respect for those whose reflections on ultimate meaning differ from our own. Sadly, this is not always the case. Some religious leaders, perceiving the Light shining through their own window, conclude that theirs is the only window through which the Light Shines. If they forget that it is in our lives and not in our words that our religion must be read, they may go so far as to incite their followers to throw stones through other people's windows. Skeptics, on the other hand, perceiving the bewildering variety of windows and worshippers, conclude that there is no Light. But the windows are not the Light, only where the Light shines through.

    This metaphor is a perfect description of Unitarian Universalism. One Light (Unitarianism) shines through many windows (Universalism), illuminating human minds and hearts in many different ways. In our congregations we honor this truth by encouraging our members to reflect on the Light through whatever set of windows they find most illuminating. We only require that this same freedom be honored for others.

    http://www.allsoulsnyc.org/...

    • Thanks. (0 / 0)

      Yes, we do frequent the UU church but that isn't really church, according to my mother! We're very happy with our choices and the local UUs but I really need to avoid these phone conversations.

      "We've GOT to make noises in greater amounts! So, open your mouth, lad! For every voice counts!"

      by progressiveinky on Wed Nov 29, 2006 at 01:29:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Then (0 / 0)

        Oh, then she's just concerned that he's not learning about Jesus.  Although he will learn about Jesus if you decide to do RE through the program.  And if decides that Christianity is his path, he can decide that too.  

        Probably best to try to tell her that you both just need to avoid the conversation.  You can't really debate religion, as you know already!

        Good luck with it!

      • UU Church (0 / 0)

        Hey... it isn't really church to us either!  We started going to the church 2 years ago and I know what your mom means.  It's church in the social aspect, but in a nutshell you can believe what you want, as you are on your own path as NJMom said.  

        It's difficult when you and your parents don't agree on something as big as religion.  Luckily, that's an area I don't have a problem as most of my immediate family is agnostic.  My MIL is a different issue, however.  She is an evangelical christian and I feel like I'm constantly biting my tongue with her comments about homosexuality, divorce, and abortion among other things.  I'm done arguing about that and politics with her.  We are just never going to see eye to eye on either subject and it's just not worth rehashing during every family get-together.  

        It is comforting to have someone "watching over you" like God or Jesus when you are a child.  But, this person watching over you can also be wrathful in some religions-- so this "comforting feeling" for the child can have it's trade offs.

        At some point she's going to have to respect your decision on how to raise your child.  Our parents won't always agree with everything we do.  

  • Alternative teachings - including Jesus (0 / 0)

    We have an eclectic extended family...Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, CA Alternative, and Pagan...among others.

    So we have found the solution is to buy children's books on spiritual teachings. Most of these books have myths or parables from all the great religions addressing peace, love, tolerance, giving, etc. from different perspectives. Youngsters can read the teachings of Jesus, or Mohammed, or Ghandi, or native american leaders, or....as they will.

    We discovered that in dealing with family it is best to say that you are teaching the 'values' of Christianity. We always avoided using the 'gospel' as part of our vocabulary.

    Is this splitting hairs? It worked with my hard core Mormon family and now they simply accept that I'm Pagan and the kids are whatever they choose to be.

    • recommendations? (0 / 0)

      This is exactly what we have wanted to do, share teachings from various religions, but we've had trouble finding kid-appropriate books other than for Christianity.  Can you recommend any that you have liked?
      • Little Stone Buddha (0 / 0)

        My girls (both preschool-age) enjoyed Little Stone Buddha.  It's a simple plot, and the illustrations are adorable.  There are lots more Buddhist children's books out there, but sadly, this is the only one in our local public library.

        I'd love to see some recommendations for more children's books from different religious traditions, too!

      • The books are at our cabin (0 / 0)

        rather than at home. We'll be there at Christmas so I'll make a list and do a diary just about the New Year.

        Usually I hangout at the local, independent bookstore and let them know what I'm looking for in books. Another one of my favorite places for buying books for kids is at the local store for Ten Thousand Villages. Check their link for a store near you. This is a fair trade organization that imports from small artisans around the world. The local stores usually carry lots of kids books while the website just carries gift type stuff.

    • Great Idea (0 / 0)

      Oh, that's a really good idea! I just know this is going to come up at some point-- we're both non-christian and hubs' parents are very christian (they sent him on christian missions to the middle east as a 14-year-old!!). It's a battle. My own athiest parents were as alienated by the intensely dogmatic deep south christianity as I am, so no help there. My own deep distaste notwithstanding, I know our kids are going to run into a lot of bible-brandishing living here and I'd like them to actually understand different sorts of spirituality in a cohesive way.

      Is this a book series or have you cobbled it together on your own?

      if you wobba cypress trees then I will wobba you

      by thais on Thu Nov 30, 2006 at 07:28:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Sallycat! (0 / 0)

      Well hello there dearest - pass on hugs to everyone you see this weekend for me, OK?

      :->

  • I'm so with you (0 / 0)

    I have the same position on church that you do - just haven't felt like it did anything for me, and wanting to teach our kids to be more inclusive and understanding of everyone's belief system.  For us, the problem has been the in-laws (although, I'm sure I'd be having the same problem with my mother if she was still alive).  Once when we were talking about religion, my MIL (who is great and 99% of the time is so supportive and complimentary of our parenting) wouldn't come out and say that she knows our children are going to hell (they're not baptized) but she said "the church's position is very clear about what happens to you if you're not baptized."  I thought that was kind of funny, actually.  Not God saying you'll go to hell but the church deciding.  That's catholicism for you.  I don't know the solution, we generally just avoid talking about it - it's only come up twice in 5 years.  It's also a little easier for me to say what I think, since she's not my mother.  The one conversation my Mom and I had about religion after I had stopped buying it all was when "The Odyssey" miniseries was on TV sometime in the late 90's.  I was visiting and we were watching it.  At one break my mom said "it's amazing, you know, all this crazy Greek mythology stuff, they truly believed it"  I said "well, you truly believe your religion too."  I think I really upset her, but she never said anything else about it.

    Wow, sorry, I didn't intend for that to be so long.  I've just spent countless hours pondering this very subject!

  • a very touching insight (0 / 0)

    about your mom's need to feel loved.  Thank you.

    My mom was a lapsed Catholic when I was growing up but in the last 5 years or so (since her mother died) she has rejoined the Church with a vengeance.  I was wondering how that would go in our relationship but I have to say I think she's handling it beautifully.  It is very important to her and she has had some mystical religious experiences (which I think is so cool!), but she has not proselytized to me at all.  We talk about belief and spirituality on an intellectual level but never talk about saving souls.  I think it may be something she prays about, something that pains her privately, but she has not brought it into our relationship.

    When my son was younger he had a born-again babysitter.  She also was pretty cool about not pushing her beliefs on him or me, but being in her home did have an effect on him.  He saw "Veggie Tales" there, and he heard "God" more than he did at home.  He got very interested in that when he was around 6 (many kids do), so we talked about it a lot back then.  Once he asked me if God would be angry about something he had done and alarm bells went off for me. Although I didn't want to push my own views too much, I did not want him to develop the idea of a watchful, wrathful god -- that seemed really scary.  I've also always been leery of the idea that god might be upset about something you've done but that you can go to confession or be "forgiven" without actually changing anything about your behavior or intentions.

    We talked a lot about "god" being a good feeling of love inside -- your own still small voice.  The idea of "being right with god" being about the same as having a clear conscience.  On the Belief-O-Matic quiz, he turns out as liberal Mainline Protestant, which I think is about right for his level of moral development (12 years old).

    My husband and I have tried a variety of congregations, including UU, Self-Realization fellowship, etc. for our family. None of us got the feeling we were looking for, and we have not pursued organized religion.  When he was younger, my son would describe himself as "half Jewish, half spiritual," which cracked me up.  One of his friends had a funny response:  "Oh yeah, me too.  I'm one-eighth spiritual."

  • wow (0 / 0)

    And now I know the reason that my mother chooses Christianity.  

    As a child, my mother had no one.  Her family consisted of four daughters with a drunk, frequently absent father and an emotionally unavailable, mean-spirited mother.  My mother found solace in Jesus at a time and in a place where she had no one.

    Wow, that's profound. I will keep that in mind next time someone is irritating me by prosthelitizing.

  • I had this happen in the opposite direction (0 / 0)

    Before my husband and I were married my then future MIL stated her objections to our marrying in a Catholic church and asked me if I really believed in that crap.  I told her yes I did and that was that.

    It was kind of rude on her part but she was pretty drunk at the time and I don't think she would have been so blunt if she had been sober.

    Oddly enough, we were at her house for a big family party on Easter Sunday.  To this day I don't understand why they get together on Christmas and Easter if they don't believe in that crap.

    • My MiL has a conniption (0 / 0)

      when I talk about Praying "to" Mary or those "false idols" the Catholic Church is so fond of (she's Lutheran). We were married in a Catholic Church, and our daughter was baptized Catholic because between the two of us, I appreciate faith more and am Catholic, though I'm probably closer to Episcopalian if I'm honest about it. But she's learned to just be happy that we're Christian and the baby's baptized and all that. It is fun to watch her blood pressure raise when she hears me talk about the "7 Deadly Sins". :)

      MY mother drives me insane- she's that woman in church who balances her checkbook, talks about what the parishioners are wearing and, Good Lord yes, even answers her ringing cell phone. My poor father has resorted to going to church earlier and earlier, now at 6am, so he can go without her because she won't get ready that early. BUT mention the fact that we haven't been to church since Lily's baptism? We are such bad Catholics!

      The last time I went to Mass at my old church, my parent's church, I about had a heart attack at the sermon. It was about how the Bible is like a recipe for Chocolate Chip Cookies. The Priest gathered all the kids to the front and started talking about how, when you're making Chocolate Chip Cookies, you wouldn't add something different to the recipe, like, spinach, would you? And all the kids go "eww, gross" and he agreed and said now, you wouldn't leave out the Chocolate Chips, now would you? No, never. His point is that the Bible is like that- you can't make substitutions or leave things out. Huh. First of all, what's wrong with adding some nuts, m-n-ms, caramel chips to your recipe? Too literal, I know, but come ON. So I turn to my mother and ask her what she thought of that message, isn't it crazy because obviously there are things about the Catholic faith that we don't believe in, like paying your way out of Purgatory and stoning women and stuff, right? Isn't that changing the recipe, dear Father, from the way Catholics USED to practice their faith? My mom says "oh, I'm sure that's not what he meant. Look how many people are wearing pink!  I see 10 people in pink this Sunday. Huh. Pink must be big this year."

      CRAZY.  

      • maybe the priest (0 / 0)

        should have made the sermon about how the Bible is like a wardrobe - "you wouldn't put the stripes and the checks together, would you? But neither would you take out that little black dress, because that's just essential to the wardrobe." ;-))
  • Good for you! (0 / 0)

    I so applaud you in your obvious emphathy and consideration of your Mom's point of view and how she came to her own spiritual place.  My ex husband's mother is very similar to how you describe your mother.  And she and I used to have many conversations about what I considered her very rigid brand of Christianity.  However that all changed when she let me in years later about the obvious abuse in her childhood.  Her mother died when she was just 11 and her father was quite abusive to her and her siblings.  From that point forward I understood her choice and admired her ability to find a way to recover and become not only a functioning person but in many ways a very kind one.  My DD is now 16 and holds very different views than her paternal grandmother.  However, my DD respects her grandma .They have found common ground and enjoy a really loving relationship. It sounds like you will find this too for your own child and  mother.
  • great idea (0 / 0)

    Your comment about how your mom is a strong believer because of her abusive and neglectful family really struck a chord.  My father is the type of person who is against all hierarchy and hates bureaucracy and people telling you what to think.  But, he is also a retired minister and has strong faith, though he doens't talk about it often since I don't share it.  I never have understood what drove him and drives him to be religious, since I am atheist and he raised my sister and I to think for ourselves and never forced us to believe anything.  But, he also comes from an abusive family -- his father was extremely angry, emotionally cold and judgmental and somewhat physically abusive (punished his children with a belt, etc.).  I can see how being involved in a church and feeling like he had a personal relationship with god and and Jesus would make a big difference in his life.  An all loving and forgiving God as a father figure would be a lot better than my grandfather. :)  

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