Mother Talkers

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  • Someone is, indeed, being selfish here. (0 / 0)

    But it's not your kid.

    If your child is not interested in going to church, perhaps you should listen to him. A lot of people have a hard time understanding this, but some people just never truly have that desire to have faith, believe in God, or go to church. When I was six or seven, I openly said I didn't believe in God in church, and only got baptized to make my life easier (because I would have had to go through the missionary discussions had I waited until I was nine).

    I did have a time in my early to mid teens when I tried really hard to be a good believer, but it just made things worse. As someone who's been there, the kindest thing you can do is not force your son into religion. If he changes his mind, good for him. Otherwise, forcing it on him will only damage him.

    Also, it almost seems to me you say your husband might be an atheist like that's a bad thing.

    by ct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:09:08 PM PDT

    • When my oldest children (0 / 0)

      reached, oh, the grand old age of three or so, I can remember being totally shocked and taken aback when they would voice ideas that hadn't come from me.  They weren't just little clones of myself...they were real people who would have real thoughts coming from their very real brains.

      by tjb22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:16:05 PM PDT

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      • heheh. It' (0 / 0)

        I'm having that ahem ... blessed ... discovery right now. And having a robust time reconciling the fact that what I want isn't actually what's always going to work with this fantastically independent little scrap of humanity! ;-D

        by Rachel on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:57:33 PM PDT

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    • That seems very harsh to me (0 / 0)

      I don't think its unreasonable to ask a 6 year old child to be involved in family activities. Nope, not everything in the world is fun kid, suck it up.

      I'm sorry you felt that religion was forced on you as a child, but when you get to be a grown-up then you get to decide your own beliefs. Struggling with that is hard for believer and non-believers alike. Figuring out our spiritual identity is the work of a lifetime. This Mom does not want to make the very act of going to church a battle ground, because once he gets there the kid seems to have a good time, with friends and donuts and juice.

      Don't we all struggle with stuff like this? What if your kid doesn't want to go to school, or brush their teeth, or eat their veggies? If its important to you, then for a period of time, its going to be part of their lives.

      by Suzanne77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:36:17 PM PDT

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      • I don't think it's harsh at all. (0 / 0)

        If the child doesn't want to go to church, fine. If the child does want to go, fine. I'd hardly consider going to church and eating vegetables to be equivalent.

        by ct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:55:38 PM PDT

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        • a lot of people (0 / 0)

          would consider it more important than vegetables, actually. You don't have to send your kids to church, but judging someone for how they choose to share their spiritual beliefs is not supportive or helpful.

          My daughter is almost 6 and it is not "fine" if she doesn't want to go to church. That's my decision as a parent and obviously Laura's as well. Calling her "selfish" because she is making a parenting decision that does not jibe with yours seems harsh.

          by Suzanne77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:13:24 PM PDT

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          • well said (0 / 0)

            Well said Suzanne.

            by NJmom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:22:28 PM PDT

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          • Believe whatever you want, I don't care. (0 / 0)

            However, since I was in this six year old's position many years ago I wanted to share my perspective. I thought the diarist may not have considered that her son honestly doesn't want to go. Most of the other posters I thought were very supportive of the diarist; I am merely supporting the child. You clearly feel differently, but I think it's wrong to force a child into a religion he doesn't want. Conversely, if a child decides he wants religion, it would be wrong to forbid it.

            My kids actually do go to church periodically, for what it's worth. If they decide they want to believe in God, it would make me sad, but I wouldn't stop them.

            by ct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:38:14 PM PDT

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            • something (0 / 0)

              I am sorry that you felt forced into a religion that obviously didn't work for you and I don't know the exact circumstances behind that.

              However, I don't see the point of asking permission of  a 6-year-old to take them to church. A six-year-old is not mature enough to know whether they want to go or not.  

              At least from my perspective, I see "making my kids go to church," as sharing a great gift, not as a punishment. And growing up, my parents didn't ask my permission either. Since there was no choice, there was no struggle. And I'm grateful for that gift of faith they gave me, because now I can see that it took a lot of work.

              I do think though, at a certain age, and I don't know what that age is, young people should be set free from any obligation or pressure from parents regarding religion.  Then they can choose.

              by NJmom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:55:20 PM PDT

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              • I would have appreciated being asked. n/t (0 / 0)

                by ct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:56:33 PM PDT

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                • At what age? (0 / 0)

                  At what age though, is it appropriate to give a child a choice if they want to go to church or not?  At what age can you expect a mature answer?  

                  Again, I don't know the answer. I just don't think it's age six.

                  by NJmom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:01:14 PM PDT

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                  • Did you miss (0 / 0)

                    Where I said that I publicly said in church that I didn't believe in God when I was six? I think that should have been a good sign.

                    by ct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:04:46 PM PDT

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                    • I'm sorry (0 / 0)

                      I'm sorry, I did miss the specific age part.

                      by NJmom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:08:43 PM PDT

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                    • What kind of a church was it? (0 / 0)

                      I'm curious because my own childhood church experience was really positive.  

                      I childproofed my house but they got back in somehow.

                      by lonestar canuck on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:20:44 PM PDT

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                      • I was raised Mormon. n/t (0 / 0)

                        by ct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:21:55 PM PDT

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                        • Oh. (0 / 0)

                          Well that explains a lot.  My brother is a Mormon.

                          The black sheep of our family is the guy who is the most religious, doesn't drink alcohol, smoke or drink coffee...and wears magic underpants.   The upside is we always have a designated driver.  

                          I childproofed my house but they got back in somehow.

                          by lonestar canuck on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:24:19 PM PDT

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                          • ct's wife here (0 / 0)

                            in my in-laws' defense, they aren't crazy Mormons; they're just Mormon.  They had no choice but to raise their sons Mormon since that's what they are.  He really is a born Atheist (although I guess I'll have to admit that most militant Atheists seem to be either the children of other Atheists or the very religious).  Even at six, he had a theological objection.  The community is actually really great, and some of the people he grew up with in that church are still supportive of him and of our little heathen family.  The magic underwear is creepy, though ;-)

                            So considering my dh's experience, I would say that strong feelings rather then age should determine when a child ready to refuse church.  

                            by Erin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:24:31 PM PDT

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                            • Oh do tell... (0 / 0)

                              I obviously don't know enough about Mormons. What's the magic underwear?

                              by aussieyank on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:05:25 AM PDT

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                            • I'm sure they are lovely. (0 / 0)

                              For full disclosure, it is impossible for me to have an objective discussion about Mormonism - I'm wildly negative about it due to my experiences with my brother and what it's done to my family.  I've tried many times to be logical about it but it's pretty much impossible for me to view anything regarding their practises in a positive light.  I know, it's a terrible flaw in my character but I can't seem to overcome it.    

                              It just makes ct's reaction to Laura and to the diary make perfect sense to learn that his childhood religion was one that was so all encompasing like that.  It would be like discovering you have a peanut allergy when surrounded by peanut farmers.  

                              I childproofed my house but they got back in somehow.

                              by lonestar canuck on Mon May 05, 2008 at 06:43:25 AM PDT

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                              • I understand (0 / 0)

                                Not a character flaw to believe what your past experience has led you to believe.  I have a lot of problems with the Mormon religion and would be quite upset if one of my kids took it up, mostly because some of what they do is in direct opposition to my own morals.  Not just the obvious sexist and homophobic stuff, but they are also absolutely shameless capitalists, and I feel like, if it's wrong to say, drink alcohol, then it's worse to pedal it.  But they feel 100% great about it.  

                                It's partly a tactic that so many Mormons are so friendly.  Since I've been with ct, I've also noticed that they are almost obsessively mainstream.  Not any kind of mainstream I'd want to be, but very, very normal.  

                                You know what's funny, though?  The older I get, the more I can't stand missionaries coming to my door.  What do they expect me to say?  "Gosh, I've never heard of this 'Christianity' but if you, total stranger, think it's a good idea, why don't you tell me about it?"  But ct has been taught to be so nice to them.  He always makes it clear that he's an Atheist, but he also practically invites the Mormon ones to dinner.

                                by Erin on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:56:02 AM PDT

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                                • I feel taken advantage of (0 / 0)

                                  when they come to my door.  I'm a polite person who's not very likely to tell them what I really think.  And I think they know this!  They can tell as soon as I open that door that I'm not going to be rude.  At some point, however, I'm forced to be, well, less than polite and then I'm mad because I feel they made me do it!

                                  by tjb22 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:02:06 AM PDT

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                                  • My brother's idea (0 / 0)

                                    Write up a text of your own beliefs and keep it by the door.  Offer to share it with them when they come a-knockin'.  Naturally, they will refuse, thus a) they will be the rude ones, and b) pretty damn nervy, too, to come to YOUR HOUSE and think that you should listen to them but not the other way around.  

                                    My bil was a Mormon missionary, and you know what?  They actually have the gall to be annoyed by missionaries from other religions.  Because a pair of Mormon missionaries is just completely different from a pair of JWs.

                                    by Erin on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:21:37 AM PDT

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                                    • My mom grew up in Salt Lake City (0 / 0)

                                      and one of my uncles converted and I have mormon aunts and cousins all over the place and many of my mom's closest friends growing up were mormom so she had a soft spot for missionaries as her own nephew was overseas in Japan on a mission for years -- so we became known as 'the house with the cool drinks" my mom would always give them a cool drink, ask about their families, as if any of them were from salt lake, wish them well and send them on their way.  

                                      mormom missionaries remind me of my child hood actually!

                                      by MKatherine1966 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:42:09 AM PDT

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                    • well, I said I did believe (0 / 0)

                      in God because there was cake for those who said it.  I may have been a heathen, but I wasn't stupid!

                      I also roped all the neighbor kids into coming to my Sunday School one time, because whoever brought the most new kids got an airplane ride.  Yeah, I'm a sucker for incentives.

                      by mamacita on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:51:38 PM PDT

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                      • I'm easy (0 / 0)

                        I'd have done it for a shiny sticker! :)

                        by Suzanne77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:00:37 PM PDT

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                      • That's a little warped.... (0 / 0)

                        Or maybe it's just me. But you got a prize for dragging in other kids? Okay...it's warped in a sort of funny way. I'm smiling. But still warped. :)

                        by aussieyank on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:22:01 PM PDT

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                        • Warped, maybe. (0 / 0)

                          However, its  a pretty standard mega church tactic.  Alas, I'm no purist....one time I allowed my kids to help out one of their friends this way.  They won a limo ride...and I let them go.

                          by tjb22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:24:34 PM PDT

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                          • a limo ride?! (0 / 0)

                            How ... incongruous. Does a limo pass easily through the eye of a needle?! ;-P

                            by Rachel on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:28:41 PM PDT

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                          • I'm a big fan (0 / 0)

                            Of using the system!! You want to give me free stuff for sitting there? Great!

                            by aussieyank on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:32:57 PM PDT

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                            • If only I could find a church (0 / 0)

                              that provided free college...we'd be all set.

                              by tjb22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:34:06 PM PDT

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                              • be careful what you wish for (0 / 0)

                                it could be free tuition to Falwell's college... Now there's a dilemma.

                                by Rachel on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:37:07 PM PDT

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                                • I'm not too worried... (0 / 0)

                                  those folks don't believe in giving away education, even their version of education.  Free college?  Downright un-American and certainly not Christian.

                                  by tjb22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:39:08 PM PDT

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                                • snicker.... (0 / 0)

                                  I grew up 45 minutes from Falwell's college. They had the best haunted house in the entire state at Halloween! But you had to sit through a prayer session afterwards. And they said "if at this time you're ready to accept Jesus into your life, just raise your head and look at us". I always wondered if anyone ever did..

                                  by aussieyank on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:39:54 PM PDT

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                                  • My Baptist friend (0 / 0)

                                    actually had the preacher do that AT HER WEDDING! He waited so long for someone to get "saved"... and there I was in 4 inch heels as a bridesmaid... I almost gave hime the signal just to end it.

                                    by Suzanne77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:46:22 PM PDT

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                                    • OMGOODNESS! (0 / 0)

                                      That would have been awful.

                                      Once, I took Zach (maybe age 10 or 11 at the time) to an inspirational talk by a someone who survived the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, I believe. At the end, the man suddenly did this "call to the front" ... and he did it this way: If you love Jesus, raise your hand and come forward, but only if you love Jesus."

                                      I looked at Z, he looked at me, and I was like, "What am I going to do? Of course I love Jesus." So, we sheepishly raised our hands and got swept up to the front, and when they tried to make us go to a back room of the church for Bible counseling of some sort, we fled! We were horrified. That was a dirty trick, to make you feel like you'd be saying you didn't love Jesus if you didn't participate.

                                      by Kay on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:25:09 AM PDT

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                                • No, not really a dilemma (0 / 0)

                                  that school's not even accredited! There are limits!

                                  Actually my church helped a lot of kids with scholarship money. We were just a small parish though not a mega-church. I read somewhere that a Mega church in Co. didn't hold any Christmas services last year, so people could hang out with their families... I was like, "What???"

                                  by Suzanne77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:40:32 PM PDT

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                        • definitely warped (0 / 0)

                          It went the other way, too.  Once at church camp we were at a campfire and the group leader said "throw a piece of wood on the fire if you believe that Jesus Christ is your Savior."  Then he bullied us -- "We're going to stay here a l-o-o-o-o-n-g time, just so you can't go back to your cabin and say 'I was just about to throw a piece of wood but I ran out of time.'"

                          I didn't throw a piece of wood into the fire and was pretty much punished for the rest of the week.  I do much better with positive reinforcements than with punishment.

                          by mamacita on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:39:45 PM PDT

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      • difference of opinion (0 / 0)

        when you get to be a grown-up then you get to decide your own beliefs

        My son has a lot of beliefs.  I would hope so, given he's been around the sun 14 times so far.  I try to expose him to all kinds of beliefs, and he certainly knows his parents' values and views.  Will he adopt them all?  Highly unlikely.  Do I want to make him pretend in the meantime?  No.  I'd rather know and cherish him for who he is.  

        He went through a (to me) pretty scary God period when he was about 5 or 6.  He worried about going to Hell and had nightmares about some of the stuff he learned from Bible stories.  I shared my own perspectives in an effort to calm and reassure him, but it really was something he needed to work through on his own. And I would support whatever spiritual quest he wanted to follow (as long as it wasn't a cult).  

        by mamacita on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:33:52 PM PDT

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        • Your children are going (0 / 0)

          to have their own beliefs.  I can't take that "spiritual journey" for my children no matter how much I wish I could.  You provided a safe place for your son when he needed you to do so.  That's what being a parent is all about.

          by tjb22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM PDT

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        • You know (0 / 0)

          I started this long post that I just deleted. The more I typed the more I sounded like someone who "doesn't" value their kids individuality or beliefs. I really, really do. I was raised Roman Catholic, but was encouraged at a young age (but older than 6) to explore other options. Judaism, Wicca, Methodist, Episcoplalian (Catholic lite!), Buddhism, black Protestant churches, Unitarian Universalist... all had great things that I liked.

          I hope my kid goes through her own spiritual journey and makes a decision that is good for her. But this Mom just wanted to make Sunday mornings less of a battle...who hasn't been there over something, right? We all have our own lines in the sand.

          by Suzanne77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:59:46 PM PDT

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        • Totally agree (0 / 0)

          You can take them to church, but you can't "make" them believe it on the inside.

          From very early, my raised-Catholic husband didn't believe a word of it despite mass every week and 12 years of Catholic school.  He remembers thinking, "So if I'd been born in a Jewish family, I'd be Jewish," and so forth.

          Katherine

          by pat of butter in a sea of grits on Mon May 05, 2008 at 06:48:33 AM PDT

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      • I agree (0 / 0)

        I think some families feel that it's an important part of family life.  Even though the father doesn't go... which is actually pretty common from what I can tell.  I think exploring the "why" behind the question is important.  I have more about this below in another comment.

        American Son ~ Wes Clark

        by 1plain1peanut on Mon May 05, 2008 at 06:02:50 AM PDT

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