Mother Talkers

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  • Not sure I agree with this. (0 / 0)

    Apologies for being late to the party, here.

    my own personal rule of thumb is, Is the child unhappy?  Is the child's behaviors or feelings interfering with his ability to do things he wants to do?

    I think the problem with following this line is that if a child doesn't realize they're not relating in a conventional way, they sometimes don't realize the problems they have. Then they get out into the real world and the lack of those skills kicks them in the teeth. What I see again and again on Asperger's message boards is people who thought they were doing OK in school or even University, who then get out into the world of work and continually get passed over for jobs, promotions, don't have their ideas taken seriously... because they believed they were doing OK, and because they were happy, educators weren't (IMO) as proactive as they ought to have been in teaching social skills. Personal skills are far more important in moving forward in your career than they ever are in School or other academic settings. I wonder if this phenomenon is missed by educators because by the time it reaches that point, these people have dropped off the educational map. Academic success =/= life success. It took me years after graduation to realize why I had been unable to hold down anything more than the most menial, temporary job.

    "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

    by Expat Briton on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:06:18 AM PDT

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    • that is really helpful to hear.... (0 / 0)

      because while i am looking ahead, right now that means elementary and middle school years.  i haven't done any research on adult issues with aspergers or like conditions... my brother lives in a group living home, but his housemates are low-functioning in terms of life and social skills, so that's the only adult angle i've seen.  i know a bit about adults with add/adhd, since i am one, but again, thinking a bit further on the trajectory sounds like a very good thing to keep in mind.  unless things change drastically, school won't be a huge issue, but unless things change drastically, rigid thinking and very basic social/communication  skills WILL continue to be an issue, so i will try to continue to work on those as lifespan issues, rather than just school-age issues.  (and of course, get help if we get stuck).  thanks for the heads up on thinking past childhood... i am out of my professional league once a kid reaches 9 years old, so adulthood seems like another planet to me.

      by slackermom on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:36:03 PM PDT

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      • if you're interested, (0 / 0)

        I have some references for books or CDs that target social behavior in young kids.  There are also books that address the anxiety that is frequently co-morbid with Asperger's and helps give kids a sense of control over feelings that sometimes feel out of control (not sure if your munchkin is experiencing that).  The approach is to break down social skills like a task analysis, and then address areas of weakness through explicit teaching.  There's one song that goes, "People like it when we say hello. Hello!" and so on.  

        I don't know if Asperger's is part of the picture or not in your case, but I think the skills-training approach can be helpful for lots of kids on and off the spectrum.

        Hope this doesn't come across as pushy. I can get a little over-zealous :)

        by mamacita on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:48:09 PM PDT

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    • that's interesting (0 / 0)

      The children I know with Asperger's are pretty aware quite early in elementary school that they feel lonely, or feel like they don't fit in, or feel like there's some secret code that they can't crack, or feel self-conscious because of their intense emotional reactions, or are bewildered when people walk away after 15 minutes of a monologue they've heard 10 times before about dinosaurs or rabbits or how each assasinated president died.... If someone takes the time to listen to them, I believe their unhappiness becomes evident.  To me it's quite different from an introverted child who
      may have one or two friends and not be interested in group activities. That child may be quite socially competent, and not have a need for lots of friends or acquaintances.

      I think students with Asperger's are sometimes overlooked in school settings because schools are not directly tasked with teaching social skills.  Many Asperger's students function at or above the average level and don't really hit the teacher's radar, unless the teacher is sensitized to the social difficulties by his or her own outside research. It's important for parents to recognize how their children are doing academically AND socially, and to bring things to the school's attention. And I believe that parents are more aware than ever before of the signs to look for.  Sometimes parents fear there's something different about their child but they fear labels.  The school district can't proceed with assessment or treatment without the parents' informed consent.  Sometimes kids fall through for that reason, with teachers trying year after year to point out the struggles of the child.

      I've written here before about the difficulties of finding students with Asperger's to be eligible for special ed services, such as social skills training, because their academic learning is not affected.  And special ed was designed to assist children who have difficulty with learning.  However, my argument is that students learn a lot from each other, especially when they challenge one another's beliefs, and if a student is not navigating the social world, it might well affect his academics.  Because I totally agree with you that a high IQ or excellent grades  -- plus $4  -- will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.  You've got to have the whole package to be successful.

      In general, I think schools are better at working with students on the spectrum than they were even 10 years ago.  So many adults with Asperger's haven't benefitted from that.

      Wow, sorry for the novella :)

      by mamacita on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:41:24 PM PDT

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      • I think the problem is.. (0 / 0)

        ..that within an academic setting, the improvements in social behavior can be somewhat amplified. The child thinks "hey, I've cracked it, I can at least get by!" somewhere in High School, and in that context they have, but moved to another context, not so much. There may also be an aspect that many of the boards that I read, at least, are populated by adults who got through school before Asperger's was an accepted diagnosis who have self-diagnosed, or received a diagnosis as part of therapy as an adult. It might be the case that less awareness and understanding when they were younger meant they didn't fully understand where they were going wrong while they were improving, and so kids who have a firmer understanding of their difficulties and better education to help with it won't run into these issues. In the end, I think I just don't know whether this will be as big an issue for the newer generation who're coming up through school.
        I really don't hear a lot of people relating their earlier years at school where the monologue issue is most likely to come up, but I will observe that even without help, most of us will figure out to a degree that we shouldn't do things that inappropriate on our own, so that's not really what I was addressing. It's understanding how far we've come, and how far we've still got to go as we age that I think I'd be most concerned about. (Speaking of which, practice interviews, it occurs to me, would probably be one of the most useful things you could offer these kids as they age.)

        I liked the novella - I remember your comments on special ed, and agree it's a real problem.

        "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

        by Expat Briton on Wed May 07, 2008 at 09:21:06 AM PDT

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        • it almost sounds like (0 / 0)

          you would want some pre-voc training?  Like, how to interview, how to interact with boss and colleagues?  Is that what you're thinking of?

          I wonder what institution/agency would be most appropriate for that kind of training, and how the people who might unknowingly need it could access the services.

          by mamacita on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:49:50 AM PDT

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          • Yes, that's exactly it. (0 / 0)

            Possibly expanded to "pitfalls of office politics," and the like. It's sad to say, but it seems like a lot of people need a "how to know when a colleague is stabbing you in the back," course. In some ways, the sort of pitfalls I think a lot of people, not just those with Asperger's, need to learn about - how to present your work to your boss so they appreciate what you're doing and such. I think for this group, understanding that it's not just producing outstanding work that's important, but making sure others notice you're producing outstanding work.

            "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

            by Expat Briton on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:46 PM PDT

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            • FWIW (0 / 0)

              I agree that's a skill that many people lack, including me.  Maybe the people who score more highly on the "justice" than "mercy" domain on personality questionnaires?  The ones who haven't quite outgrown the "But it's not fair!" indignation?  There are some real sharks in some workplaces that look for any advantage, any weakness in their colleagues.  If need be, they'll invent one, all to make themselves look good to the boss.  Some people are much better at playing the game than others.  It would be great if we could all have a class on that!

              by mamacita on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:02:23 PM PDT

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