Mother Talkers

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  • good point (0 / 0)

    I think the difference, though, is that I don't think Expat is saying "and since i cannot help but stare at breasts, they should always be covered lest I think you cannot do your job because they are exposed." My interpretation of what he's saying if you don't want to BE looked at, be more wary.

    The point of my friend's discussion, though, was that by sheer presence of having boobs that aren't completely covered, the people around her think she's incapable of her work. That is ridiculous, IMO

    by lilianna28 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:34:42 PM PDT

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    • If only (0 / 0)

      I have rarely, if ever, wanted to be looked at breast-wise--as evidenced by the dowager's hump I've got from slouching for the past quarter century--but that hasn't really made any difference. Nor have clothing choices. It really comes down to the man.

      Your friend should frame this picture of Angela Merkel and put it on her desk.

      by sangfroid on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:56:47 PM PDT

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    • I'd hoped my point would come across as... (0 / 0)

      ...a little more subtle than that, and I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave. I think it's a complex subject, and one in which there's never going to be a perfect answer - I think women need to understand that they do need to make an effort where possible, and men need to understand that they should try to keep their eyes off and not let a woman's appearance dictate to them what they think that woman's competence will be. But honestly, I think both men and women need to understand that appearances, especially when appearances appeal (intentionally or not) sexually will make a difference as to how they'll view a person. I worry more about those who deny that appearance affects their judgment, because I think they're kidding themselves. It's harder to deal with a problem when you won't even accept that that problem exists.

      As for your discussion with your friend, yes, I'd agree that her colleagues need to get a grip.

      "You're never more alone than when you're alone in a crowd."

      by Expat Briton on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:03:54 AM PDT

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      • :) (0 / 0)

        I didn't take it like that, sorry if it came across that way. We're all apologies today! :)

        I agree, it's harder to deal with a problem if you pretend it doesn't exist, which was kind of why I ranted to my BFF. My issue is if we're in the workplace, and we do this prairie girl-cover-up nonsense, and downplay our bodies, our personalities, etc. to fit into what some 50 year old guy's idea of a "good corporate girl" is, then we've lost the ground we're trying to gain, that women do not have to be men to work as well as men do.

        The flipside, which hasn't been mentioned much here, is the opposite- dressing like a "mouse" or acting more demure (not pushy) gets you no respect either... it's a madonna / whore complex to the corporate level- you either have to be androgynous to the men around you, asexual, or you have to adjust to whomever you happen to be around.

        My company is a 4 person operation, essentially, and the woman I consider to be a mentor is someone who worked in the hardware world for over 20 years. We joke about what it was like, dealing with the hardware guys- you'd either have to bat your eyes and be really feminine (and then get the "well, she's probably not as bright as me but she's nice enough) or take go to the after-work beer fests and "laugh" at the tit jokes and the like and be one of the guys. It's just so damn frustrating... one of the reasons she bailed, in fact, and I know if you told the owner that, or one of the guys she used to work with that she left mainly because of the bullshit, they'd never believe it, because she doesn't seem like the "type to be bugged by it".

        by lilianna28 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:14:13 PM PDT

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