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  • they were paid (0 / 0)

    The reason they went public? Money.

    NINE'S 60 Minutes paid the South Australian father and his daughter to talk about their incestuous relationship on television.

    The program also chose to ignore salient facts which were readily available in court transcripts from their recent trial for incest.

    This has caused a lot of controversy here; the program didn't reveal the details of the couple's daughter who died after four days, and they certainly didn't disclose that they paid the couple for the interview.

    Also, it's worth pointing out that these people are under investigation by police and have been prohibited from having sex:

    South Australian police are investigating the payment of money by the show to father/daughter couple John and Jenny Deaves for the interview. John Deaves admitted being paid.

    Police charged the couple with incest and South Australian courts placed them on a three-year good-behaviour bond, which stipulates they not have sex.

    by Rachel on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:30:23 PM PDT

    • Ok... (0 / 0)

      but how can the possibly monitor the whole "not having sex" thing? You can say you're not going to have sex ALL DAY, EVERYDAY, but truth of the matter is, if they want to get their freak on, they will.

      MotherTalkers moderator and mommy to Karina (8/94) and Cristian (2/99).

      by gloria on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:33:18 PM PDT

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      • sure (0 / 0)

        and I wonder how SA police are going to monitor them after they move away; part of the money they were paid is being used to move.

        But what can the police actually do? I mean, there isn't an ankle bracelet that'll alert the police when they're doing the nasty (or, in this case, the nasty nasty).

        by Rachel on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:38:16 PM PDT

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        • Ridiculous (0 / 0)

          what is the crime? I just don't get it. Yeah, it's creepy and weird and nasty nasty, but what is the crime? They are consenting adults. I'd move, too. But I would NEVER in hell go public for any amount of money. Ugh.

          Mom of two - Sally (4-02) and Sam (8-04). Sam has a central I.V. line & a g-tube.

          by GiGi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:39:47 PM PDT

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          • I understand what you're saying... (0 / 0)

            they ARE consenting adults...a bit OFF, but consenting adults. I think the crime here is incest. Even if they are consenting adults, having an incestuous relationship is a crime.

            MotherTalkers moderator and mommy to Karina (8/94) and Cristian (2/99).

            by gloria on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:44:55 PM PDT

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          • well, incest is the crime (0 / 0)

            I mean, we can have a philosophical debate as to whether incest is a crime, but for the moment, it is listed as one on the statute books. They went pubilc about their private lives, so of course the police are going to notice.

            by Rachel on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:52 PM PDT

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            • I guess THAT is what I'm questioning (0 / 0)

              the incest laws...especially among consenting adults. I understand it when minors are involved, but consenting adults. Me no likey.

              Mom of two - Sally (4-02) and Sam (8-04). Sam has a central I.V. line & a g-tube.

              by GiGi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:12:14 PM PDT

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              • I'm not sure how I feel (0 / 0)

                consenting adults, fine. But then what about having children in an incestuous relationship? It's known that close relations having children infinitely raises the chances of serious birth defects; is it fair on them?

                by Rachel on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:25:01 PM PDT

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                • Is any breeding (0 / 0)

                  fair on children? I mean, really, so many things can go wrong...I have an enzyme deficiency that runs in my family. Should I not have bred? Sam suffered a vascular accident in utero that had nothing to do with anything. My brother's first child died from a cord accident. So much of having babies is iffy. Are that many folks inbreeding that there needs to be a law forbidding sex and marriage among consenting adults?  I think it goes more to social taboos and mores than anything. Perhaps mandate a course on genetics? I don't know. What if they're gay? Is it ok then? The whole thing is just weird and I can't believe I have strong feelings about it either way. Weird. Weird. Weird.

                  Mom of two - Sally (4-02) and Sam (8-04). Sam has a central I.V. line & a g-tube.

                  by GiGi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:15:26 PM PDT

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                  • you raise really good points (0 / 0)

                    I can't answer you one way or the other, but you raise good points.

                    by Rachel on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:54:59 PM PDT

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                  • ok, I'll charge in here (0 / 0)

                    As a geneticist, I am very very very uncomfortable with the prospect of justifying laws based on theoretic genetic risk. Should we ban childbirth in women over 40 to reduce the risk of Downs?  Should parents of autistics be prevented from subsequent pregnancies?  What about Huntingdons, a horrible fate with a 50% chance of transmission?

                    This couple's chance of having children with genetic disorders is certainly elevated.  They should receive counseling, just like any other couple facing serious genetic risk.  But what they will actually experience is a reduced fertility rate.  Most of the serious genetic defects that they carry in common will result in an inviable fetus.  It is a tragedy - especially since they've already had such a child make it all the way to birth - but in this case it is also nature's way of taking care of something that was never meant to be.  And most children of incest will still be perfectly normal.

                    Only half of my son's children can be normal, no matter who he marries.  His odds are worse than this couple's.  Should he reach this point in his life he will face some difficult decisions.  He will know better than any legislature whether the risk is worth taking.

                    mom to DS1, 7 yr old frat boy, and DS2, 5 yr old engineer

                    by lyn on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:24:29 PM PDT

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                • devil's advocate (0 / 0)

                  I think I'm with you on this one -- that as consenting adults it's fine (though weird), but having kids is not.

                  However, the birth defect issue is tricky.  Does that mean that people who are genetically predisposed to having kids with birth defects shouldn't be allowed to reproduce?  I'm not sure.

                  mom to two boys, born 10/04 and 10/06

                  by Treena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:17:36 PM PDT

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                  • Exactly (0 / 0)

                    Does that mean that people who are genetically predisposed to having kids with birth defects shouldn't be allowed to reproduce?

                    Slippery slope and who decides which defects are acceptable?

                    Mom of two - Sally (4-02) and Sam (8-04). Sam has a central I.V. line & a g-tube.

                    by GiGi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:20:11 PM PDT

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                    • Yes (0 / 0)

                      You and I posted at the same time and I think we see this the same way.  It's obviously a tough call, but I think it's one where I need to step back and say "to each his own."  It's not like anyone wants their kids to have birth defects anyway.

                      mom to two boys, born 10/04 and 10/06

                      by Treena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:37:46 PM PDT

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                  • The world has gone totally mad. (0 / 0)

                    Incest is a crime. Incest is a crime. Incest is a crime.
                    This is not confusing. It is not unclear.
                    The Australian newspaper story on this is totally outrageous and irresponsible.
                    "Consenting adults"??? The woman grew up without a father-that automatically puts her at an emotional disadvantage.
                    How young seems OK? 17, 18,19,20? Are women those ages "consenting adults"?
                    What message does this sent to young girls who are being molested/incested/raped by their fathers?
                    This is depressing as hell. Not just the story, but the responses to it on a feminist leaning blog for mothers. I'm going to go and have a good cry now.

                    by orphanmother on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:08:47 AM PDT

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                    • Not incest, per se (0 / 0)

                      that I'm reacting to, but the regulation of adult sexuality. It is a slippery slope re: genetic testing, LGBT rights, etc.

                      Incest aside, child abuse/molestation/rape is a crime no matter WHO is doing the abuse/molesting/rape. So, again, I think it is the social taboo instituted centuries ago - probably to encourage growing ones clan outside of immediate family ties - that we are all reacting to so viscerally.

                      If I'm 18 and want to have sex with my dad or brother or sister or mother - and they are willing - it's really nobody else's business. Really.

                      And, I think it is patently FALSE that women who grow up without a father are emotionally disadvantaged. That is a specious argument that is offensive to single mothers and lesbian parents.

                      Mom of two - Sally (4-02) and Sam (8-04). Sam has a central I.V. line & a g-tube.

                      by GiGi on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:21:18 AM PDT

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                      • Parent/Child relationships (0 / 0)

                        If an 18 year old "wants" to have sex with their mother or father...there are serious psychological problems and most definitely criminal sexual abuse on the part of the mother or father that welcomes it and engages in it. It should be somebody's business because it is highly predatory on the part of the parent. Incest is a total violation of the very nature of the parent/child relationship-at any age.
                        Any mother or father who does this to a child is viciously damaging that son or daughter whether they are 8,18,38,etc.

                        It is an easy argument to make that growing up without a father is no problem at all for people who had fathers. Single mothers and lesbian parents have my total respect. Parenting is a difficult job. Growing up without a father in our society can be very difficult for the child depending on where one is raised (the south for example)...that's just the truth-I went through it, I know, and I was at an emotional disadvantage in my teens because of it. But what do I know, maybe other people thrived on not having a father.

                        What I'm reacting to viscerally is the casual response to this particular case of criminal incest. The idea that incest being a crime falls into the negative category of "regulation of adult sexuality" is something I disagree with strongly.
                        I mean, geez, I'm about as far left a Democrat as you can get. But no way in hell do I see incest between parent and child over 18 as non-criminal or the laws against it as an unfair regulation of adult sexuality.

                        by orphanmother on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:55:24 AM PDT

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                    • curious (0 / 0)

                      I'm wondering whether your feelings about this would be different if it were an older woman and a younger man.  Or two birth siblings who had been raised in different families.  Or two adopted siblings with different birth parents.  Incest in itself is not necessarily a power issue (though that may very well be the case with this Australian couple).

                      I find it doubtful that incestuous relationships are likely to be healthy, but there is no crime against consensually entering an unhealthy relationship.

                      I think the important differentiation is morally wrong vs. a crime.  Everyone has different morals and will feel differently about various issues.  I think this is considered a crime because people are so overwhelmingly morally against it, but I have trouble seeing this as criminal without a clear victim (though you could certainly argue that the children are the victims, but that's also a slippery slope).

                      mom to two boys, born 10/04 and 10/06

                      by Treena on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:35:59 AM PDT

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                      • Feelings (0 / 0)

                        My feelings are very strong on this regarding the parent/child relationship:father to daughter or son OR mother to son or daughter. There is most certainly violation there on the part of the parent and clearly an abuse of power.
                        Siblings raised in separate families or adopted siblings, I can't speak to. The sibling relationship is very different from parent/child. But I imagine that most, if not all, incestuous relationships are very psychologically damaging...and physically in cases rape and in some cases resulting suicide.
                             I probably sound like I'm making moral judgments, but I'm not.

                        by orphanmother on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:18:39 AM PDT

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                        • You don't sound overly morally judgmental (0 / 0)

                          I don't agree with you, but you do have valid arguments that are obviously stemming from genuine concern.

                          I do think that this woman sounds damaged, like you say.  Not that it would matter legally, but she's 31, not 18. I do not think she is making good, sound, educated choices.  Still, where I differ is, I still think she's an adult and should be able to do as she likes.  Yes, she's almost certainly in this relationship for the wrong reasons, but if she wasn't, I really think she would be in a different relationship for the wrong reasons (not illegal, anf few argue that it should be), so...do you not get all the same rights as other adults, even if you have a lot of big, heavy baggage.  I guess I think, often unfortunately, that part of being an adult is the freedom to make choices that could be quite damaging to oneself.

                          I don't agree that your thought that this woman has problems due to being raised without her father is offensive to lesbian moms or single dads, because, even though she was one, it's not that she never had a father.  She did, and he abandoned her, and I think abandonment, even at the age of one, causes problems.  My six-month-old is attached to my husband, and so was my daughter, long before the age of one.

                          I have no clue about this, but I'll ask the scientists...my gut tells me that, genetically, sibs breeding would be worse than parent/child?  Aren't (full) siblings more closely related?

                          Simone (1/04) and Milo (9/07)

                          by Erin on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:05:05 PM PDT

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                          • single moms (0 / 0)

                            not dads.  Oops!

                            Simone (1/04) and Milo (9/07)

                            by Erin on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:07:00 PM PDT

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                          • asdf (0 / 0)

                            I don't agree that your thought that this woman has problems due to being raised without her father is offensive to lesbian moms or single (moms), because, even though she was one, it's not that she never had a father.

                            So, you are saying abandonment is what puts her at an emotional disadvantage, correct? That's a far cry from saying being raised w/o a father put her at said disadvantage. Two completely different things IMO and I stand by my earlier assertion that the latter is disrespectful and specious.

                            Ok, I'm done with this thread now.  'Bout time, eh?

                            Mom of two - Sally (4-02) and Sam (8-04). Sam has a central I.V. line & a g-tube.

                            by GiGi on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:42:23 PM PDT

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                          • same genetic relationship (0 / 0)

                            Aren't (full) siblings more closely related?

                            Nope, exactly the same - 50% related except for the X and Y bits.  

                            mom to DS1, 7 yr old frat boy, and DS2, 5 yr old engineer

                            by lyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:23:19 PM PDT

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                        • tip toeing in.. (0 / 0)

                          i am with you here. adult consent, genetics aside, it is VERY wrong. a parent, whether mother or father, no matter the circumstance, engaging in sex with offspring should be a crime. the psychological consequences of such an act are enough to persuade me that this is a crime that needs to remain in tact.

                          by parentalunit1 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:19:08 PM PDT

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                    • defining incest (0 / 0)

                      Yes, it is a crime.  But I think it is valid to question why it is a crime, and when it should be a crime.  Miscegenation used to be a crime too, and laws against it were even defended as protecting black women from exploitation by white men.

                      This case gets at the very heart of the definition of family.  Is it genes that matter, or relationships?  I'm both a geneticist and an adoptive mother, so genes don't impress me; I come down squarely on the side of relationships.

                      It is not ever acceptable for a girl to be raped or molested by her father, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they share genes, it is because it is rape and he is her father.  It is an equally horrific crime for a girl to be raped by her genetically acceptable stepfather or adoptive father.  GENES are not the issue here.  

                      The Australian couple did not have a father/daughter relationship.  If they had only discovered their relatedness after the fact, they'd receive nothing but sympathy.  The fact that they did know is what generates the universal "eeewwww" response.  But does it change things in the end?  Should it?

                      I am far more disturbed by the marriage of SoonYi Previn and Woody Allen, who was the father of Previn's younger siblings. But since Allen wasn't married to Previn's mother there was neither legal nor genetic basis to claim incest here.

                      mom to DS1, 7 yr old frat boy, and DS2, 5 yr old engineer

                      by lyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:07:19 AM PDT

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                      • Sympathy (0 / 0)

                        If they had only discovered their relatedness after the fact, they'd receive nothing but sympathy.

                        I'm not sure about that.  I think you'd still get the ewwww response in that situation regardless of the timing of the discovery.

                        Katherine, mom to two boys 7/00 and 1/04

                        by pat of butter in a sea of grits on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:32:51 AM PDT

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                      • Family (0 / 0)

                        The Australian father left his daughter when she was a year old-that means he was probably there when she was born, held her, changed her diapers,fed her,etc. He was fully aware that she was his daughter when they met when she was 31.
                        It makes no difference if the child is adopted- it is every bit the same criminal violation of that child by the mother or father.

                        by orphanmother on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:34:47 AM PDT

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        • Yeah... (0 / 0)

          so the ankle bracelet starts to sound an alarm when it's up in the air??

          MotherTalkers moderator and mommy to Karina (8/94) and Cristian (2/99).

          by gloria on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM PDT

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